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Topic # 113549 20-Jan-2013 11:22 Send private message

So there was an article on torrentfreak about Kim Dotcom suggesting, via his twitter feed, that the music industry has a few key points to overcome as a means to reduce piracy.

The RIANZ responded and basically said, suing for copyright infringement under 3-strikes law and basically making examples of people is the only way to stop piracy.

So i sent this letter to the RIANZ.

I doubt they would take any notice, but im with Kim on this one - i dont want itunes, I personally think it wastes ram. But i would like to legally download music from the pirate bay - and so would many of our subscribers as it means i can still use my usb stick in the car (the only place i listen to music)


What do you guys think of my proposed solution:

An Open Letter to RIANZ

 

I am Ray Taylor, managing director of a small ISP providing broadband to rural hawkes bay.

This morning I have been reading the story linked below, about some statements made by RIANZ in response to those of Kim Dotcom.

http://torrentfreak.com/record-labels-correct-dotcom-only-way-to-stop-piracy-is-suing-file-sharers-130118/

The note that suing file sharers is the only way to discourage piracy is a problem. It is virtually impossible to find a customer who has been illegally downloading on our network, and the government’s recent three strikes law can be technically impossible to follow and identify an internet subscriber.

We use Carrier Grade NAT on our network – this is because ip addresses are running out and APNIC is no longer issuing new subnets to ISP’s.

A typical notice sent by a rights holder would ask us to forward it on to the customer based on the public ip address supplied by said rights holder.

Because all of our customers share ip addresses dynamically, with multiple customers behind the same ip address at any one time, we are unable to tell from a notice containing a public ip address which customer was downloading illegally. About half of our customers have their own public ip address, and the other half run behind carrier grade NAT connections. A couple of other major ISP’s in NZ now do this also because of a lack of IPv4 address space.

However I would like to propose a simple solution that would probably net more income for RIANZ to distribute to rights holders, based on a Canadian model.

In Canada, all blank music cd’s have a small tax attached to them when sold. This tax is used for your Canadian counterpart to distribute to rights holders for the music that will be burned to those blank cd’s.

CD’s are not common anymore and I think this is now slightly out-dated. My car stereo uses a usb thumb drive that plugs into the front of the head unit, rather than cd’s. I don’t want an ipod and itunes is a waste of RAM on my computer.

 

I would like to therefore propose the following:
All ISP’s in New Zealand should be able to sell an add-on subscription on behalf of RIANZ.

Internet subscribers would be able to purchase a “RIANZ Download Subscription” add on to their internet service, entitling them to a simple flat rate of unlimited music downloads from whichever source they decide. This would mean that websites such as the pirate bay can bring in income for RIANZ, via a simple subscription that prevents the consumer from being sued under three-strikes law. Should the end user decide to use another service such as itunes, then the subscription sold by the isp would not be needed.

The subscription would only need to cover artists represented by RIANZ and have a 10% mark up retained by the ISP for their administration services, as well as an incentive for the ISP to sell the add-on subscription when telemarketing or adding new customers. The isp would forward payments to RIANZ and I suggest a retail value of $10 per month, or $120 per year would be a suitable amount that personally I would be happy to pay as a consumer.

RIANZ could then distribute the subscription fees to artists using the same algorithms that are used for low power FM radio music licenses. I understand this to be based on commercial radio play rates.

Anyhow I doubt you would be interested in pursuing such a venture in the near future, but would like you to know that Taylor Communications is open to partnering for a trial.

 

 

Ray Taylor
Taylor Communications




Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




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BDFL
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  Reply # 747705 20-Jan-2013 11:30 Send private message

The number of people who would buy the "RIANZ Download Subscription" add on? ZERO.

And if one buys it. how would they differentiate between music download BEFORE the add on was purchased and AFTER? If they stop paying the ADDON all the music in the collection downbloaded during the period the add on was paid is kosher then?

You don't like iTunes because it uses RAM? That's not good a good enough excuse in my book.






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  Reply # 747706 20-Jan-2013 11:30 Send private message

As a side note- most of our customers do not engage in p2p.
Torrenting is less than 5% of our monthly throughput - and we understand that to be mostly blizzard game updates such as world of warcraft.

However as households connect to our network, they discover the benefits of broadband - users discover more - and p2p traffic is slowly rising. So looking forward, I would rather partner with the RIANZ, than have to say "No, that ip address supplied was shared by three subscribers at the time, and therefore we are unable to identify the person who infringed upon your copyright"




Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




BDFL
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  Reply # 747707 20-Jan-2013 11:33 Send private message

Also, don't try suggesting this to applied to every account automatically.

It would make people who don't download this kind of content pay for something they don't use.

Also music is different from video, different from books, etc. You do a deal with one group you have to do with all groups.





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  Reply # 747708 20-Jan-2013 11:34 Send private message

The most likely response is going to be "It's your job as the ISP when using CGN to be able to identify the flows of traffic"

Also what other "major ISP" are using CGN?




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 



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  Reply # 747710 20-Jan-2013 11:35 Send private message

freitasm: The number of people who would buy the "RIANZ Download Subscription" add on? ZERO.

And if one buys it. how would they differentiate between music download BEFORE the add on was purchased and AFTER? If they stop paying the ADDON all the music in the collection downbloaded during the period the add on was paid is kosher then?

You don't like iTunes because it uses RAM? That's not good a good enough excuse in my book.


Haha among other reasons - not just ram.

I have been talking to a few of our subscribers - and there are a few motels and parents who would purchase the subscription to protect themselves. Its not possible for a typical parent to block p2p traffic, especially with torrent clients now avaliable for android.

The other argument is who wouldnt want to?
Itunes at $2 per song, vs $10 for unlimited (via any other unpaid source)

Whats itunes commission per song?





Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




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  Reply # 747712 20-Jan-2013 11:37 Send private message

There are unlimited legal sources around. Rdio, Pandora and so on. These are streaming services but can sync to mobile devices.

iTunes is not the only source of downloads. I buy from 7Digital, unlocked mp3, pay with Paypal.

Are you saying that people shouldn't pay for their music and download from these torrents, or are you saying iTunes is too expensive?

Define your problem then you look for a solution.

Here is a blog post with lots of legal music download services available in New Zealand and here is one with links to legal video and movie services available in New Zealand.

Stop protecting the pirates. Fight for cheaper, more available options. That's the good fight.

Stop worrying about the RIANZ, MPAA and others. Work to have legal downloads at good price in New Zealand instead, one where the artists get at least something - torrents pay nothing to the artists (yes, I know about arguments such as "torrents make them popular, they make money from concerts, etc).









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  Reply # 747713 20-Jan-2013 11:41 Send private message



Also what other "major ISP" are using CGN?


http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=135&topicid=110189

Add 2talk (part of the call plus / slingshot family) to the list also.




Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




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  Reply # 747718 20-Jan-2013 11:55 Send private message

freitasm: or are you saying iTunes is too expensive?

I personally think that; most songs are $2.39 while in the US they're only $1.29. Even after taking GST into account that's still a premium of almost 35%. While that's OK for one song, it quickly adds up.

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  Reply # 747720 20-Jan-2013 12:00 Send private message

Behodar:
freitasm: or are you saying iTunes is too expensive?

I personally think that; most songs are $2.39 while in the US they're only $1.29. Even after taking GST into account that's still a premium of almost 35%. While that's OK for one song, it quickly adds up.


There are other providers available locally. Shop around. I looked around and decided to use 7Digital because it was cheaper than Marbecks for a few cents per track.

And no, those Russian-based music websites aren't legal.





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  Reply # 747721 20-Jan-2013 12:02 Send private message

Please inform us of their reply, it will make for interesting reading.

gzt

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  Reply # 747753 20-Jan-2013 12:43 Send private message

Similar things have been suggested from time to time. Imho these suggestions do have some merit. The problem for these distribution models is that media companies would lose a_lot of existing control over distribution which they consider a prime strategic asset.

As the market mass of customized internet radio increases users will not feel the need to access torrents simply to create playlists approximating their interests. Media companies have been a bit obstructive in relation to internet radio while seeking to extract a higher value from the new territory than they currently get from conventional radio.

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  Reply # 747760 20-Jan-2013 13:03 Send private message

"In Canada, all blank music cd?s have a small tax attached to them when sold. This tax is used for your Canadian counterpart to distribute to rights holders for the music that will be burned to those blank cd?s."

The last thing people in NZ want to see is more taxes. With the Canadian model not much money ever made it to the artist. What money did make it from the Gov tax take mostly went to the record industry the Canadian equivalent to the RIAA..

Even the CD / DVD tax isn't enough for the industry these days they have started suing up there as well..




Regards,

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  Reply # 747795 20-Jan-2013 14:39 Send private message

kornflake: Please inform us of their reply, it will make for interesting reading.


The thread won't stay unlocked anywhere near that long. Laughing




Vodafone VDSL:

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  Reply # 747822 20-Jan-2013 15:29 Send private message

Beccara: The most likely response is going to be "It's your job as the ISP when using CGN to be able to identify the flows of traffic"

Also what other "major ISP" are using CGN?


I'm experienced on this subject, so allow me to chime in here.

DISCLAIMER: This post is likely to be controversial so I will start by saying it by no means represents the opinion of my employer in any way, neither is it reviewed by their staff.

Suppose we want to identify a user from an existing notice. I thank Juha for this example:



First, you need to understand how detection occurs (generally):

- A user joins a torrent swarm by adding a torrent to his/her BitTorrent client (or peer-to-peer application)
- A company who provides detection services (e.g. Irdeto Intelligence, formally BayTSP) has also joined a number of swarms (or cycles through swarms automatically)
- The detection software records IP addresses of peers it is provided by the tracker/master node, or by Peer Exchange (PEX), or by DHT.
- (optionally) The detection software downloads some data from each peer to confirm it matches content they have been asked to protect.

- The detection bot then looks up the user's IP address using publically-available IP address registries (e.g. ARIN, APNIC, RIPE NCC, etc) - and matches this to an ISP
- The detection bot finds the abuse address from the publically-listed data and e-mails the ISP an automatically-generated notice, such as the notice above.

The ISP receives:

- The time the infringement occurred
- The IP address of the user
- A notice number (not data we can use to track a connection)
- A date of detection notice (legal matters - not relevant to tracking a connection)
- The rights holder name (not relevant to tracking a connection)
- The artist name of the alleged infringed work (not relevant to tracking a connection)
- The ISP details (I suspect the ISP receiving the notice may find they know this information already)

Now, a little about carrier-grade NAT:

In IPv4, we have 65,535 usable TCP ports. This means that we are able to load up to 65535 useful connections per IP address. Some of these ports should not be used (1-1024, for instance, are 'service ports').

- We take an internal IP address (based on RFC1918 - like 192.168.30.77) and give it to our user.
- We translate connections coming from this address, as they pass to the Internet through our gateway, into real addresses - like 203.96.91.1
- We make a note of this connection in our database, with the following attributes:
Source IP (192.168.30.77),
Destination IP (76.10.154.38 - in this case, an American DSL provider),
Source port (randomly from our range 1025-65535),
Destination port (randomly from the peer's P2P client),
the date and time down to the second,
and the amount of data used in bytes while this connection was open.

Okay, what information can we match from this notice to find our user? Well -

- For every session the user makes to the Internet, they get a new source port on our shared external IP address. So, the user uses a different port for every peer it connects to. So, the notices need to specify the user's source port (which they don't).
- That source port could be reasonably expected to be re-used, because peer-to-peer makes a significant number of connections. So, we need to record time more accurately (and this means clocks need to be synchronised) - which they're not.
- To make sure there's no doubt in identifying the user, the notice should specify the IP address the user connected to when they uploaded to the detection software.

With this information (source port, plus destination IP address, plus time) - we can identify which user infringed copyright. However - storing this information per connection for a whole ISP (e.g. Callplus) would run into several terabytes for only one week's data.

Additionally,

- If the detection company posts a detection software IP address on the notice (or a port and time), a rogue ISP staff member could record this IP address, and feed the information back to a central database of known detection IP addresses (e.g. Peerguardian). This will force the detection company to change IP addresses. Over time, this will make detection software prohibitively expensive, as large numbers of (scarce) IPv4 resources are required.

Essentially, I argue (with strong reasoning) - that detection is not going to work in a carrier-grade NAT scenario; that the ISP can help, but should fight against it (for economic reasons - storing terabytes of connection-tracking data is expensive) - and, that detection software would be thwarted over time, by the necessity of providing evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a particular user was infringing.


CGN is therefore incompatible with detection-based notices and ISPs cannot effectively resolve the problem.




“I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... Such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything.” - Nikola Tesla

Disclaimer: Views expressed in my posts do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer.

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  Reply # 747823 20-Jan-2013 15:31 Send private message

old3eyes: "In Canada, all blank music cd?s have a small tax attached to them when sold. This tax is used for your Canadian counterpart to distribute to rights holders for the music that will be burned to those blank cd?s."

The last thing people in NZ want to see is more taxes. With the Canadian model not much money ever made it to the artist. What money did make it from the Gov tax take mostly went to the record industry the Canadian equivalent to the RIAA..

Even the CD / DVD tax isn't enough for the industry these days they have started suing up there as well..


That was when people still burned music to CDs. But again technology has moved on, and I don't think blank media is sold much  these days.
Tax on particular services is essentially user pays, so I don't have a problem with such a tax. 

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