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Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 22694 5-Jun-2008 15:48 Send private message

Just yesterday i was browseing the internet as i do and my internet just disconnected.

My account was suspended for torrenting a movie.

I admit i was in the wrong, Xnet has given me a warning and put my account back up.

There is a few issues i have with this though:

1. They knew exactly what i downloaded, they had the name, so there looking through all our packets now? Is there such a thing as privacy anymore?

2. When they disconnected my internet they didnt just disconnect the internet, it came with my VOIP phone, luckily we still have our telecom line but if it wasnt the case how would we get in conatct with them with no internet or phone?

I know its not XNet as it cant be great for business but i think this law's going a bit far....

Your thoughts......

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BDFL
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  Reply # 135718 5-Jun-2008 15:59 Send private message

They don't look at what you are doing. Probably there was a "honey pot" machine serving the file(s) and the company hosting those files reported to WorldxChange that "such IP at such time and date downloaded such copyright content".

WorldxChange has done what they are required to do. See another case here with a longer explanation.

And as per our rules I am locking this discussion.





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Reply # 135739 5-Jun-2008 18:51 Send private message

I am unlocking this thread as requested, under the condition that the matter of copyright infringement is not brought up into the discussion.




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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 135745 5-Jun-2008 19:13 Send private message

Thanks Mauricio


There are a number of issues which I would like to discuss others, and perhaps the xnet staff if they fell comfortable with it.

I would like this discussion to remain farily robust and as Mauricio says, not to mention the the reasons for suspension.

My take on the situtation is this:


With the introduction of Naked DSL and specifically voip being offered as a service on top of this there are a number of issues which come about whenver a user is suspended. No longer is access to the interent a 'nicety' or a want but it becomes a need.

In any other industry (electrictiy/water etc) to suspend an account, for say non-payment, takes months, Xnet on the other hand seem free to cancel the service without notice - Maverick has previously stated that they will try and contact people first before this happens however I have read of multiple instances on these forums where this has not happended.

We only have to look at the uproar at Muliaga death from Vector cutting power to see that public infrastructure providers (water/gas/electricy/phone) essentially cannot cut basic services - something that a phone line is seen as today.

What if you need to call 111 only to discover that your service has just been cut, there are multiple issues here that ultimely xnet, selling a phone system, I belive can't ignore.

I do beleive that for any reason, xnet or any other isp/public works provider should be able to cut service, but there needs to be ample time to find a replacement, say a month?

Thoughts comments?

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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 135747 5-Jun-2008 19:14 Send private message


Brifely to the OP re privacy: They have netflow logs - while I believe these don't store the content that you were downloading they do store the source and destination ip. Not sure how long these are stored for but appear to be at least multiple months.

A company such as BayTSP which run said honeypotys then informs xnet who can confirm the time and dest/src of traffic

Right - back on (the new) topic ;)

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  Reply # 135752 5-Jun-2008 19:36 Send private message

Filterer: Thanks Mauricio


There are a number of issues which I would like to discuss others, and perhaps the xnet staff if they fell comfortable with it.

I would like this discussion to remain farily robust and as Mauricio says, not to mention the the reasons for suspension.

My take on the situtation is this:


With the introduction of Naked DSL and specifically voip being offered as a service on top of this there are a number of issues which come about whenver a user is suspended. No longer is access to the interent a 'nicety' or a want but it becomes a need.

In any other industry (electrictiy/water etc) to suspend an account, for say non-payment, takes months, Xnet on the other hand seem free to cancel the service without notice - Maverick has previously stated that they will try and contact people first before this happens however I have read of multiple instances on these forums where this has not happended.

We only have to look at the uproar at Muliaga death from Vector cutting power to see that public infrastructure providers (water/gas/electricy/phone) essentially cannot cut basic services - something that a phone line is seen as today.

What if you need to call 111 only to discover that your service has just been cut, there are multiple issues here that ultimely xnet, selling a phone system, I belive can't ignore.

I do beleive that for any reason, xnet or any other isp/public works provider should be able to cut service, but there needs to be ample time to find a replacement, say a month?

Thoughts comments?


I won't comment to much at present , but you raise a couple of very good points, more to follow




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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  Reply # 135765 5-Jun-2008 20:12 Send private message

Filterer: T

public infrastructure providers (water/gas/electricy/phone) essentially cannot cut basic services - something that a phone line is seen as today.

What if you need to call 111 only to discover that your service has just been cut, there are multiple issues here that ultimely xnet, selling a phone system, I belive can't ignore.

I do beleive that for any reason, xnet or any other isp/public works provider should be able to cut service, but there needs to be ample time to find a replacement, say a month?

Thoughts comments?


So internet is a luxuary good i agree
telephone is essential also agree

why can't xnet just put a block on all traffic other than VOIP
And limit the value of calls (i assume free local VOIP to telephone exists?)
This way xnet suffers limited financial impact but the customer is not going to die even if the family choose not to call the ambulance.




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  Reply # 135768 5-Jun-2008 20:21

Filterer:

What if you need to call 111 only to discover that your service has just been cut, there are multiple issues here that ultimely xnet, selling a phone system, I belive can't ignore.

I do beleive that for any reason, xnet or any other isp/public works provider should be able to cut service, but there needs to be ample time to find a replacement, say a month?



Fair enough that internet access and VoIP be separated but flying the "111" flag considering the dubious reliability of ADSL is getting a bit dramatic.

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  Reply # 135769 5-Jun-2008 20:24 Send private message


why can't xnet just put a block on all traffic other than VOIP
And limit the value of calls (i assume free local VOIP to telephone exists?)
This way xnet suffers limited financial impact but the customer is not going to die even if the family choose not to call the ambulance.


Agreed - voip traffic only and say 30 days from notice to cutting off that service.

Currently xnet does not work in this manner though, they currently drop the ppp connection and don't allow it to be reformed. To do what you are suggesting is essesntially traffic shaping - something which many isps have tried, its VERY difficult to get right and maintain performance for everyone else

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  Reply # 135771 5-Jun-2008 20:27 Send private message

Bung:
Fair enough that internet access and VoIP be separated but flying the "111" flag considering the dubious reliability of ADSL is getting a bit dramatic.


Fair point and I would have agreed with you 6 months ago or if I lived far from an exchange. Four months without any downtime in my voip - to me,now, I would expect it to "just work" at any other time - the same as POTS

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  Reply # 135776 5-Jun-2008 20:39 Send private message

Bung:
Filterer:

What if you need to call 111 only to discover that your service has just been cut, there are multiple issues here that ultimely xnet, selling a phone system, I belive can't ignore.

I do beleive that for any reason, xnet or any other isp/public works provider should be able to cut service, but there needs to be ample time to find a replacement, say a month?



Fair enough that internet access and VoIP be separated but flying the "111" flag considering the dubious reliability of ADSL is getting a bit dramatic.


I believe this is a very valid point and there is a growing number of people who do only have VoIP solutions. I don't think the reliability of ADSL is an issue at all - if Telecom were acting on copyright infringement notices and cut your internet + PSTN line would that be any different?


I don't have an issue with WxC's policy of enforcing the cease & desist letters and strongly suspect that many more ISP's will be taking notice of such letters in the not too distant future. I also think their policy of cutting internet access is fine - but this should not be removing the phone service. 

IMHO WxC need to look at changes to their system to allow all VoIP traffic still and redirect all other web traffic to a page explaining exactly what has happened and why.


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  Reply # 135779 5-Jun-2008 21:00 Send private message

if(AccountPirate)
{
document.location.href="pirateDisconnectExplanation.html";
}
else if (AccountNotPaying)
{
document.location.href="poorPersonDisconnectExplanation.html";
}
else
{
// carry on nothing's holding you back.
}

I can set up a rule on my own hardware firewall to disallow all traffic except to *.xnet.co.nz*. Surely an ISP can do such a simple task.




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Ultimate Geek


  Reply # 135782 5-Jun-2008 21:10 Send private message

You have to do deepish inspection of packets.

This takes time and a lot of hardware to do at line speed.

How is the AccountPirate varaible resolve - in a huge sql table - me thinks not.

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Geek


  Reply # 135786 5-Jun-2008 21:38 Send private message

There some very interesting points brought up here

Here’s another scenario;

Say you have a wireless network (as many of us do) which is secured. Someone hacks into your wireless network and uses your connection.

Wireless security is easily hacked, but to most households they are not going to be aware of the various levels of security. This is completely out of the users control. How can the user prove that they weren’t responsible for the  misuse of their  internet connection????


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  Reply # 135788 5-Jun-2008 21:43 Send private message

enforcernz:

Say you have a wireless network (as many of us do) which is secured. Someone hacks into your wireless network and uses your connection.

Wireless security is easily hacked, but to most households they are not going to be aware of the various levels of security. This is completely out of the users control. How can the user prove that they weren’t responsible for the  misuse of their  internet connection????



Seriously?

Well it is your connection, so look after it. Just because you can afford something does not mean you can use it. I am sure this does not affect you, and to people who it does? I am sure torrenting is the least of their worries, like people having access to their PC's and private information etc.
Chances are, if they cannot do their own wireless security, they will have no security what so ever.

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  Reply # 135812 5-Jun-2008 22:50 Send private message

I agree with Xnet terminating connections in this way, however they should be giving some warning to the client, if you were in the middle of an important call or video conference, then this could cause seriouse problems. even at least a week's warning for them to be off the Xnet network.

I cant disconnect from xnet that quickly, how do they manage to do it like that? and for the whole transaction of emails and everything to take place during the time you are downloading that file.




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