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9 posts

Wannabe Geek


Topic # 104207 17-Jun-2012 00:39 Send private message

Hi everyone

First post here which I believe is in the right place.
Have been reading a few threads today about phone line wiring etc. however I still can't figure it out + I have a few other questions which I would very much appreciate help on.

Have just purchased a 1950's home. Remove fireplace and mantel and half and about to gib up the space as this is where the tv will sit. At the same time have decided to move an electrical socket to the middle of this space, as well as TV aerial (need help on this one too) and lastly phone line. Lets call this the fireplace connection panel.

After investigating I have my phone line figured out but unsure if it is 2 or 3 wire system - has some antique equipment in the mix.

I have 3 phone outlets in the house - 1 main in kitchen (photo #2) with cordless attached, 1 in lounge (photo #3) I am extending a few metres which will be solely for wireless modem & router and 1 downstairs in basement/garage (photo # 4) to also have phone attached.

Currently I have 2 black wires coming into the ceiling space from the roadside, these wires run to a telephone outlet in the kitchen See photo #1, from here, both a red and white wire is joined and run to the #2 & #5 terminal respectively - see photo #2.

The lounge outlet (photo #3) then has a wire which runs back to the first outlet and has a red wire to terminal 2, blue to 3 and white to 5.

Basement (photo #4) has a wire also linking back to outlet 1 and red wire punched on top of the other 2 red wires in terminal 2, blue to 3, white on top of the other 2 existing white wires to 5.

So first of all, I have also decided to run a length of cat6 cable from the fireplace connection panel following the phone line back into the ceiling, another cat 6 cable to be run from here down to basement.
This is so, in time I can possibly consolidate my cabling to the basement and move my wireless router and modem there also. As well as the cat6 which follows the phone line for future, in case the wireless modem/hub stays in the lounge will provide better, cabling in the case of fibre?

Basically the fireplace connection panel, once gibbed will be extremely difficult (read impossible) to run new wiring to.


Is running cat6 next to coax UHF cable ok?
Would I be better going cat6a? If so, Where can I buy lengths of cat6a cable...on a Sunday?
I have cat6 terminal plugs, can cat6a use these or will they only be operating at cat6 limitations?

I thought I read somewhere cat cable can now be used for phone wiring - is this true? if so, do I for instance just strip back the cat cable, and just connect for instance the blue to #2 terminal, and the blue white to terminal # 5? what about terminal 3 where the blue wire currently goes now? If so I will do this.
Will using cat wiring for phone provide greater bandwidth in the future for a modem/router than a standard phone line (e.g once fibre is connected or the like)?

I have heard people mention splitters? What is a splitter and how could it help me? Currently I have just 1 filter which connects to the main telephone outlet, and the cordless connects to this.

What else have I missed? 







Much appreciated!


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866 posts

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  Reply # 641992 17-Jun-2012 06:34 Send private message

looks like from the pictures you house has been wired for the phones as a 3 wire with master jack point.

The current standard is a 2 wire, ditch the master outlet (photo#2), put a standard 2 wire outlet in, use cat 5, don't use cat 6 as it's just a waste of money, it's only as phone line.

Yes, buy a wired DSL splitter, get it wired near where the main phone line comes in (photo#1), use another pair, say blue/white as your dsl line, keeping red/white as your filtered phone line, and this will provide a filtered phone line to the rest of the phone outlets in the house.

Whichever outlet you use for your dsl modem you will have to wire to the unfiltered pair (blue/white).

I'm assuming that your running cat 6 for the ethernet, yes run it next to co-ax, no problem, I would reccommend running several runs down to where your TV is, as a lot of TV gear has provision for etherent, x-box,PS3,tivo, TV's, or at least make extra holes  down the wall and put in a draw wire!

General rule is make provision for way more than you need as it will make it easier in the future when you need to add another connection for something else.



9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 642052 17-Jun-2012 12:03 Send private message

Thanks for the reply

I will purchase the splitter MM3200B from Mastertrade. Because I haven't seen this yet, I assume I connect the 2 black wires which make up the main phone line in to it, from there, run a red and white to first phone outlet, connecting to terminals #2 and #5, and then the splitter will also have another pair of (white, blue) lines which I will connect to the white, blue wires of the cat6 cable and then the same at the terminating end of the cat6 cable where my adsl modem will plug in.

You mention to not use cat6, however it was on special for +5c metre more than cat5e so thought, can't do any harm, but now I have been reading that in fact cat6a is better, thus I want cat6a for the adsl line.

I can run cat5 cable from the splitter to the phone outlets at a different stage as this is all accessible, however where I will connect my modem/router to the adsl will not be accessible, thus wanting to ensure this cabling is up to scratch to enable future bandwidth speeds.

In time I can then run cat5e cable from splitter using red/white to phone outlet in kitchen (main one) and then another cat5e cable to 2nd phone outlet in garage. And would refer to the 3rd phone outlet in the lounge as a adsl outlet.

For the blue white for the adsl line, can I then connect this to an rj45 outlet?, and then I would need an RJ45 to RJ11 patch chord to connect my modem to this jack point, thereby receiving the adsl line yes?

Is this also the case for phone outlets, If I used cat5e cable for connecting the phone outlets, but used rj45 wall outlets, only connecting the red and white wires, and using an rj11 ->rj45 from the actual phone to wall outlet. would this still work? Just thinking as phone outlets are way more expensive than data/rj45 outlets.

Thoughts - probably confused the hell out of you and made way too many incorrect assumptions.
 

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  Reply # 642067 17-Jun-2012 12:43 Send private message

Hi, firstly just forget cat6a its readily available in 305m reels, but you will need a good $500 to get that reel and I dont know of anyone selling it in less than a reel, and its simply not required.

Cat3 (which is what the white cabling in your house is, is rated and characterised to 10Mhz, cat5e to 100MHz, cat6 to 250MHz and cat6a to 500MHz.

Bandwidth usage wise Phone/voice uses 0.04MHz, ADSL2+ uses 2MHz, VDSL2 uses typically 12MHz but can extend to 30MHz, FastEthernet (100Mb/s) uses a 31MHz centre spectrum with sidelobes extending to just beyond 60MHz, GigE (1000Mb/s) ethernet uses 62MHz carrier with sidelobes extending to just over 100Mhz. Cat5e and Cat6 are rated to carry all those signals to the full 100Metres, cat6 will carry 10GigE to 37m and cat6a is rated to carry 10GigE to 100m. So as you can see, all you need is cat5e, but cat6 if you must.

Firstly the leadin from the street is an old trurip (thats the heavy black cable) this is not good for DSL signals, it probably is not an immediate issue, but if it were me I would take a couple of days of no phone line and attempt to have it fail for some reason (long garden loppers are good) and get it replaced by Chorus with modern 2pair outdoor cable, only they can run a new aerial line from the street.

Secondly, I would run 1 or 2 cat5e runs (or cat6 if you must) from each of the rooms to a central location, sounds like your basement is the go. And at least one from the ceiling with 2 or 3m extra slack where the current leadin enters the building. Then make a patch panel in the basement (sounds like a couple of 6hole faceplates with some RJ45s will do what you want) and terminate all the lines there are fully wired RJ45 4pair (8wire) data capable.

Install a wired in master filter on the inbound line (now its all centralised to put it in the basement is fine as long as its the first thing to touch the line.

Hope that all makes sense

Cyril



9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 642079 17-Jun-2012 13:20 Send private message

Thanks Cyril
So...about getting chorus to replace the inline..would this be free of charge? If for instance a contractor accidentally bumped it with a hiab truck or the like and snapped it between where it enters my house and th transmission pole, or are you talking about inside the house?

So cat6 well be fine for 10gig e as long as each length is less than 37m, including patch cable length? Will do this considering cat6 is the same price as 5e, and can give 10x bandwidth theoretically.

What is the purpose of the cat cable from the phone line in?

Also, what about using the cat cable and rj45 outlets instead of expensive phone outlets for phones?

866 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 642099 17-Jun-2012 14:18 Send private message

killjoyee: Thanks for the reply

I will purchase the splitter MM3200B from Mastertrade. Because I haven't seen this yet, I assume I connect the 2 black wires which make up the main phone line in to it, from there, run a red and white to first phone outlet, connecting to terminals #2 and #5, and then the splitter will also have another pair of (white, blue) lines which I will connect to the white, blue wires of the cat6 cable and then the same at the terminating end of the cat6 cable where my adsl modem will plug in.

You mention to not use cat6, however it was on special for +5c metre more than cat5e so thought, can't do any harm, but now I have been reading that in fact cat6a is better, thus I want cat6a for the adsl line.

I can run cat5 cable from the splitter to the phone outlets at a different stage as this is all accessible, however where I will connect my modem/router to the adsl will not be accessible, thus wanting to ensure this cabling is up to scratch to enable future bandwidth speeds.

In time I can then run cat5e cable from splitter using red/white to phone outlet in kitchen (main one) and then another cat5e cable to 2nd phone outlet in garage. And would refer to the 3rd phone outlet in the lounge as a adsl outlet.

For the blue white for the adsl line, can I then connect this to an rj45 outlet?, and then I would need an RJ45 to RJ11 patch chord to connect my modem to this jack point, thereby receiving the adsl line yes?

Is this also the case for phone outlets, If I used cat5e cable for connecting the phone outlets, but used rj45 wall outlets, only connecting the red and white wires, and using an rj11 ->rj45 from the actual phone to wall outlet. would this still work? Just thinking as phone outlets are way more expensive than data/rj45 outlets.

Thoughts - probably confused the hell out of you and made way too many incorrect assumptions.
 


You're getting a little confused here, you do not need a RJ11 to RJ45 adaptor, RJ45 is the standard etherent style connector, RJ11 is the standard phone plug (as used in americia) but we use BT style instead, using a standard RJ45 socket as a phone outlet will only cause confusion and problems later on down the track.

There are plenty of places to get a standard BT style socket wall outlet, such as bunnings, or mitre10, saying that you can also get the modules for standard HPM or PDL wall plates.

It's a good idea to follow the established standards, use BT style sockets for phone, use RJ11 style for ADSL, use RJ45 style for ethernet.

If you make your ADSL phone socket an RJ11 style then the cable supplied with your DSL modem will plug right in, this will also stop a phone been plugged in to that socket.


Using cat 5 or 6 or 6e makes no difference all of these cables can be used for phone wiring.

The same goes for ethernet wiring, cat5, or 6 is fine.

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  Reply # 642122 17-Jun-2012 15:30 Send private message

Hi, as greg has mentioned you need to be consistant with what you do, if you want to use RJ45s then go the full structured cabling route and then that is acceptable.

Might I suggest for a hub a ST2208, this I designed (sorry for the shameless plug) expressly for smaller installations and apartments, it has a structured cabling patch panel, phone patching and filter connections all in one. you dont need a proper cabinet to house it, simply screw it too a wall if you wish.

http://www.sigtech.co.nz/webapps/p/72000/105425/397749

Be aware that the patch panel is only cat5e rated, but its fine to use cat6 cable with it.

Cyril

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  Reply # 642284 17-Jun-2012 23:30 Send private message

gregmcc:
killjoyee: Thanks for the reply

I will purchase the splitter MM3200B from Mastertrade. Because I haven't seen this yet, I assume I connect the 2 black wires which make up the main phone line in to it, from there, run a red and white to first phone outlet, connecting to terminals #2 and #5, and then the splitter will also have another pair of (white, blue) lines which I will connect to the white, blue wires of the cat6 cable and then the same at the terminating end of the cat6 cable where my adsl modem will plug in.

You mention to not use cat6, however it was on special for +5c metre more than cat5e so thought, can't do any harm, but now I have been reading that in fact cat6a is better, thus I want cat6a for the adsl line.

I can run cat5 cable from the splitter to the phone outlets at a different stage as this is all accessible, however where I will connect my modem/router to the adsl will not be accessible, thus wanting to ensure this cabling is up to scratch to enable future bandwidth speeds.

In time I can then run cat5e cable from splitter using red/white to phone outlet in kitchen (main one) and then another cat5e cable to 2nd phone outlet in garage. And would refer to the 3rd phone outlet in the lounge as a adsl outlet.

For the blue white for the adsl line, can I then connect this to an rj45 outlet?, and then I would need an RJ45 to RJ11 patch chord to connect my modem to this jack point, thereby receiving the adsl line yes?

Is this also the case for phone outlets, If I used cat5e cable for connecting the phone outlets, but used rj45 wall outlets, only connecting the red and white wires, and using an rj11 ->rj45 from the actual phone to wall outlet. would this still work? Just thinking as phone outlets are way more expensive than data/rj45 outlets.

Thoughts - probably confused the hell out of you and made way too many incorrect assumptions.
 


You're getting a little confused here, you do not need a RJ11 to RJ45 adaptor, RJ45 is the standard etherent style connector, RJ11 is the standard phone plug (as used in americia) but we use BT style instead, using a standard RJ45 socket as a phone outlet will only cause confusion and problems later on down the track.

There are plenty of places to get a standard BT style socket wall outlet, such as bunnings, or mitre10, saying that you can also get the modules for standard HPM or PDL wall plates.

It's a good idea to follow the established standards, use BT style sockets for phone, use RJ11 style for ADSL, use RJ45 style for ethernet.

If you make your ADSL phone socket an RJ11 style then the cable supplied with your DSL modem will plug right in, this will also stop a phone been plugged in to that socket.


Using cat 5 or 6 or 6e makes no difference all of these cables can be used for phone wiring.

The same goes for ethernet wiring, cat5, or 6 is fine.


I take it you aren't suggesting a structured cabling approach? Never use anything other than RJ45 for a structured cabling solution.

TBH the OP should be following what Cyril is saying even if it does look like a lot of work. Much better to be doing it now while you are renovating rather than in 2 years time when you get UFB and have to do it.





148 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 642306 18-Jun-2012 05:37 Send private message

I use RJ45 throughout my house. The modem is connected with an R11 - RJ45 cable that I terminated myself. We have a pair of joined cordless handsets, and the main one is connected via BT to a PBX master dongle that goes into any RJ45 socket. The beauty of this is that I only need RJ45, and I can move the phone to any socket in the house (with a nearby power point).




9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 642318 18-Jun-2012 07:26 Send private message

You keep mentioning"structured cabling" is this what chorus are calling a star hub?

Line in at a central point and all rj cable from there to outlets for both phone and ethernet, ASL connected at the hub.

Thanks

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  Reply # 642326 18-Jun-2012 08:01 Send private message

Hi, yes and all outlets in the house of a structured cabling setup are fully wired (8wire/4pair/RJ45s) so you can patch phone, or data or with appropriate splitters both, or other services such as video, IR etc.

Pete will PM you latter in the morning with the answers to your last PM.

Cyril

148 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 642334 18-Jun-2012 08:23 Send private message

As for the discussion around cat5, 5e or 6, I prefer the idea of 6 because even if you don't think you will have a need for it, a future homeowner might. I don't think you can get HDMI audio and video down one length of cat 5e, but I think I read somewhere you can with cat6, unshielded even.

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  Reply # 642443 18-Jun-2012 11:38 Send private message

Here's a good recent example of "structured cabling"

Planning: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/hazza87/7956
Installation: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/hazza87/7970



9 posts

Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 650765 4-Jul-2012 17:21 Send private message

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I am slowly getting there. I've run all the wiring so just need to get a hold of the right equipment (switch etc) to complete the job and then get my head around the final wiring.

Can anyone recommend a good crimper for the cat cable & tester? Just something that works as I probably won't be needing it after this job.
Or alternatively if anyone is in Auckland (Glen Eden) and would care to borrow out their tools for a day or so for in return a box of beers?

Cheers



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  Reply # 667707 5-Aug-2012 10:23 Send private message

Firstly the leadin from the street is an old trurip (thats the heavy black cable) this is not good for DSL signals, it probably is not an immediate issue, but if it were me I would take a couple of days of no phone line and attempt to have it fail for some reason (long garden loppers are good) and get it replaced by Chorus with modern 2pair outdoor cable, only they can run a new aerial line from the street.

Cyril


Hi cyril,
What does 'trurip' look like?

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  Reply # 667708 5-Aug-2012 10:27 Send private message

Like speaker cable, each conductor of the pair is in its own sheath and the two a molded together like a figure 8 as shown below.

http://www.surplustronics.co.nz/shop/cat560.html

Modern 2 pair is a single black sheath with the 4wires (in two pairs) inside, so it looks a bit like TV coax from the outside.

Cyril

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