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79 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 2


Topic # 113636 22-Jan-2013 22:01 Send private message

Well I thought I would take a peek at the Education Amendment Bill to make a submission as the date to make one is 24 Jan

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/SC/MakeSub/f/b/4/50SCES_SCF_00DBHOH_BILL11822_1-Education-Amendment-Bill.htm

I noticed a technology section that I understand to mean a student may be required to access a password protected menu on his or her phone or computer or give the password to a teacher

If the item is stored on a computer or other electronic device, the teacher may require the student—“(a)to reveal the item:

“(b)to surrender the computer or other electronic device on which the item is stored.


If this is the case my submission will be against this for privacy and safety reasons
Computers and phones may have other personal info inside password protected menus and I do not want a teacher(you have seen the media reports about what some teachers get up to) seeing a password protected area on a student's electronic device especially when you would have an untrained teacher playing the cop





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302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 749189 22-Jan-2013 22:22 Send private message

[i] Well I thought I would take a peek at the Education Amendment Bill to make a submission as the date to make one is 24 Jan

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/SC/MakeSub/f/b/4/50SCES_SCF_00DBHOH_BILL11822_1-Education-Amendment-Bill.htm

I noticed a technology section that I understand to mean a student may be required to access a password protected menu on his or her phone or computer or give the password to a teacher

If the item is stored on a computer or other electronic device, the teacher may require the student—“(a)to reveal the item:

“(b)to surrender the computer or other electronic device on which the item is stored.


If this is the case my submission will be against this for privacy and safety reasons
Computers and phones may have other personal info inside password protected menus and I do not want a teacher(you have seen the media reports about what some teachers get up to) seeing a password protected area on a student's electronic device especially when you would have an untrained teacher playing the cop [i]



I read this as "a or b" a student can reveal the item or the student can surrender the item.  If the item is surrendered it is passed on to the DPs and then the student can continue to hide the item, which depending on what was suspected could mean parents or police would be called in or reveal what was suspected.

Believe it or not teachers act with the best intention of the students interest in mind.  We care about our students and don't want them hurt.  I have confiscated phones when I have seen videos of fights and bullying on the phone.  

We don't care about your personal stuff on your phones, we don't want to see your facebook, photos, contacts ...


302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 749192 22-Jan-2013 22:23 Send private message

Can't quote or edit OP text for some reason

253 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 26

Trusted

  Reply # 749197 22-Jan-2013 22:28 Send private message

blackjack17: [i] Well I thought I would take a peek at the Education Amendment Bill to make a submission as the date to make one is 24 Jan

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/SC/MakeSub/f/b/4/50SCES_SCF_00DBHOH_BILL11822_1-Education-Amendment-Bill.htm

I noticed a technology section that I understand to mean a student may be required to access a password protected menu on his or her phone or computer or give the password to a teacher

If the item is stored on a computer or other electronic device, the teacher may require the student—“(a)to reveal the item:

“(b)to surrender the computer or other electronic device on which the item is stored.


If this is the case my submission will be against this for privacy and safety reasons
Computers and phones may have other personal info inside password protected menus and I do not want a teacher(you have seen the media reports about what some teachers get up to) seeing a password protected area on a student's electronic device especially when you would have an untrained teacher playing the cop [i]



I read this as "a or b" a student can reveal the item or the student can surrender the item.  If the item is surrendered it is passed on to the DPs and then the student can continue to hide the item, which depending on what was suspected could mean parents or police would be called in or reveal what was suspected.

Believe it or not teachers act with the best intention of the students interest in mind.  We care about our students and don't want them hurt.  I have confiscated phones when I have seen videos of fights and bullying on the phone.  

We don't care about your personal stuff on your phones, we don't want to see your facebook, photos, contacts ...

Ok, but what if the original demand is based on safety?




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 749200 22-Jan-2013 22:40 Send private message

MikeSkyrme:
blackjack17: [i] Well I thought I would take a peek at the Education Amendment Bill to make a submission as the date to make one is 24 Jan

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/SC/MakeSub/f/b/4/50SCES_SCF_00DBHOH_BILL11822_1-Education-Amendment-Bill.htm

I noticed a technology section that I understand to mean a student may be required to access a password protected menu on his or her phone or computer or give the password to a teacher

If the item is stored on a computer or other electronic device, the teacher may require the student—“(a)to reveal the item:

“(b)to surrender the computer or other electronic device on which the item is stored.


If this is the case my submission will be against this for privacy and safety reasons
Computers and phones may have other personal info inside password protected menus and I do not want a teacher(you have seen the media reports about what some teachers get up to) seeing a password protected area on a student's electronic device especially when you would have an untrained teacher playing the cop [i]



I read this as "a or b" a student can reveal the item or the student can surrender the item.  If the item is surrendered it is passed on to the DPs and then the student can continue to hide the item, which depending on what was suspected could mean parents or police would be called in or reveal what was suspected.

Believe it or not teachers act with the best intention of the students interest in mind.  We care about our students and don't want them hurt.  I have confiscated phones when I have seen videos of fights and bullying on the phone.  

We don't care about your personal stuff on your phones, we don't want to see your facebook, photos, contacts ...

Ok, but what if the original demand is based on safety?


I am unsure of what your point is?

Demand to reveal or demand to surrender?

If I think safety is an issue there is a range of things I can do, ranging from talking to the student to getting a student to run a red card to the DPs (think code red).

22 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 6

Trusted

  Reply # 749213 22-Jan-2013 23:25 Send private message

This is going to create some interesting conversation for certain, however I do agree that most teachers (and yes I have seen what *some* teachers get up to) are just looking out for the safety of others. I too have confiscated phones and cameras that I have seen being used inappropriately, and if I thought someone had something on their device that could negatively impact them, another student, another teacher, me or the school I would confront the student and wish to have a discussion about that - mostly because some students (and people in general) need to be educated and made to see what the real implications of certain behaviours are, and I have seen them and they are terrifying and sad.

I don't think teachers should have the right to just randomly go through someones device looking for something but we do need support to look for data that has no right/place to be there, otherwise we are powerless to help the vulnerable.

1332 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152
Inactive user


  Reply # 749300 23-Jan-2013 09:04 Send private message

Nope.

Giving teachers power to search a student's digital storage for something they suspect to be present is wrong.

Teachers do not require this power because they are not the police. If there is reason to suspect something potentially dangerous or illegal is being stored call the parents and/or the police.

4068 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 205

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  Reply # 749317 23-Jan-2013 09:26 Send private message

blackjack17: Can't quote or edit OP text for some reason

That would be because there's no reason to; by definition your reply must be in relation to the only other post in the thread.

174 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 7


  Reply # 749342 23-Jan-2013 09:48 Send private message

I'm a big proponent of civil liberties. Any law which seems to remove them should be thoroughly supported by evidence and reason. I don't see the supporting argument here. If there is illegal material on the phone, the police should be called. If there's not, the teacher had no right to go snooping. It's all well and good to say "teachers have the best interests of the children at heart" but you fail to realize that these laws are always eventually abused by someone. Always. So we need to consider the lowest common denominator, not the average use scenario.

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 749347 23-Jan-2013 09:53 Send private message

Behodar:
blackjack17: Can't quote or edit OP text for some reason

That would be because there's no reason to; by definition your reply must be in relation to the only other post in the thread.


Didn't realise that was how it worked, I was hoping to bold a section of the quoted text.

I will put up the whole section of the amendment so we can see how there is nothing really to worry about.

 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2012/0077/latest/DLM4807480.html
28
New sections 139AAA to 139AAF inserted

After section 139A, insert:
“139AAA
Surrender and retention of property

“(1)

This section applies if a teacher has reasonable grounds to believe that a student has hidden or in clear view on or about the student's person, or in any bag or other container under the student's control, an item that is likely to—

“(a)

endanger the safety of any person; or

“(b)

detrimentally affect the learning environment.

“(2)

If this section applies, the teacher may require the student to produce and surrender the item.

“(3)

If the item is stored on a computer or other electronic device, the teacher may require the student—

“(a)

to reveal the item:

“(b)

to surrender the computer or other electronic device on which the item is stored.

“(4)

A teacher may do either or both of the following to an item surrendered under this section:

“(a)

retain the item for a reasonable period:

“(b)

dispose of the item (if appropriate).

“(5)

A teacher may retain a computer or other electronic device surrendered under subsection (3)(b) for a reasonable period.

“(6)

If an item or a computer or other electronic device is retained under this section, it must be stored in an appropriate manner.

“(7)

At the end of any period of retention, any computer or other electronic device, or any item that is not disposed of under subsection (4)(b), must be—

“(a)

returned to the student; or

“(b)

passed to another person or agency, as appropriate.

“(8)

A teacher who exercises a power under this section must comply with any rules made under section 139AAF.

“(9)

In this section and sections 139AAB to 139AAF, unless the context otherwise requires,—

“item includes information stored in electronic form

“student includes a person under the supervision of a teacher, whether or not the person is enrolled at the school at which the teacher is employed

“teacher means a person employed at a State school in a teaching position (within the meaning of section 120).
“139AAB
Limitations on section 139AAA

“(1)

Nothing in section 139AAA permits a teacher—

“(a)

to search any student; or

“(b)

to search any bag in a student's control; or

“(c)

to use physical force against a student; or

“(d)

to require a student to provide a bodily sample.

“(2)

Nothing in section 139AAA permits a teacher to have a dog with him or her for the purpose of exercising a power under that section.

“(3)

The powers set out in section 139AAA may not be exercised in relation to 2 or more students together unless the teacher has reasonable grounds to believe that each student has an item specified in section 139AAA(1) on or about his or her person, or in any bag or other container under his or her control.

“(4)

Nothing in subsection (1) limits or affects sections 41, 48, and 59 of the Crimes Act 1961.

“(5)

In this section,—

“rub-down search means a search in which the person conducting the search—

“(a)

runs or pats his or her hand over the body of the person being searched, whether outside or inside the clothing of the person being searched:

“(b)

inserts his or her hand inside any pocket or pouch in the clothing of the person being searched

“search, in relation to a student, includes—

“(a)

a strip search; and

“(b)

a rub-down search

“strip search means a search where the person conducting the search requires the person being searched to remove, raise, lower, or open all or any part of the latter person's clothing.
“139AAC
Prohibitions on searches by contractors

“(1)

A contractor may not—

“(a)

exercise any power in section 139AAA; or

“(b)

search a student.

“(2)

In this section, contractor has the meaning given by section 78CA(2).
“139AAD
Refusal to produce or surrender item

If a student refuses to reveal, produce, or surrender an item or computer or other electronic device under section 139AAA(2) or (3), a teacher may take any disciplinary steps, or steps to manage the student's behaviour, that the teacher considers reasonable.
“139AAE
Power to search storage containers not affected

Nothing in section 139AAA limits or affects any power to search any locker, desk, or other receptacle provided to students for storage purposes.
“139AAF
Rules about surrender and retention of property

“(1)

The Secretary may from time to time make rules (which must be consistent with this Act) regulating the practice and procedure to be followed by boards, principals, and teachers under sections 139AAA to 139AAD, including, without limitation, rules—

“(a)

providing for the keeping of records relating to the use of the powers under section 139AAA; and

“(b)

specifying the circumstances in which items may be disposed of under section 139AAA(4)(b); and

“(c)

setting out requirements for the storage of items and computers and other electronic devices under section 139AAA(6); and

“(d)

making provision for the return of items and computers and other electronic devices under section 139AAA(7)(a).

“(2)

Rules made under this section are regulations for the purposes of the Acts and Regulations Publication Act 1989 and the Regulations (Disallowance) Act 1989.”



The proposed amendment has nothing about enforcement other than "a teacher may take any disciplinary steps, or steps to manage the student's behaviour, that the teacher considers reasonable."

-We can not search bags (but can confiscate the bag and I have asked a student to empty her bag to eliminate her as a suspect in a theft).

-We can not search a person (but can ask someone to empty their pockets (they don't have to))

-There is no mention of passwords (we can't make you tell us)

-There is no mention that we are allowed to search the device after confiscation (I would think this would come under the rule of searching bags (not allowed)

One thing students should be aware of is "139AAE Power to search storage containers not affected "  We provide computers to students and anything stored on that may well come under this law.




302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 749358 23-Jan-2013 10:04 Send private message

GBristow: I'm a big proponent of civil liberties. Any law which seems to remove them should be thoroughly supported by evidence and reason. I don't see the supporting argument here. If there is illegal material on the phone, the police should be called. If there's not, the teacher had no right to go snooping. It's all well and good to say "teachers have the best interests of the children at heart" but you fail to realize that these laws are always eventually abused by someone. Always. So we need to consider the lowest common denominator, not the average use scenario.


The law does not allow us to go snooping, it allows us to ask the student to reveal something or to confiscate the device.  It is simply removing the old grey area of confiscating phones and computers.

I will give you a real example of how this would works.

While on duty I came across some students recording themselves whacking each other in the head (they were doing it for fun and there was no bullying per-say, they were just being stupid.  I asked the student to show me the video, he complied, the video looked bad, like people getting beatings with a group of kids laughing.  If the video was uploaded it could have been used for bullying purposes and bring disrepute upon the school.  So I confiscated the phone.

I gave it to the DP, the DP asked the student to unlock his phone and then after seeing the video, asked the student to delete it and the group of students had to do a net safety course and their parents were notified.  The phone was returned.

The amendment is simply making it clear that what teachers have always done is allowed

2385 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 292
Inactive user


  Reply # 749364 23-Jan-2013 10:12 Send private message

I noticed a technology section that I understand to mean a student may be required to access a password protected menu on his or her phone or computer or give the password to a teacher


I agree 100% with this.




79 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 2


  Reply # 750301 24-Jan-2013 16:31 Send private message

No-one has mentioned what info a teacher may see on an electronic device a student may have in clear view that could

A)Endanger a person's safety
B)Harm the learning environment

Anyone got any ideas?
If people are going to say 'the phone may ring and disrupt people', that does not do any harm or endanger safety

2799 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 458


  Reply # 750309 24-Jan-2013 16:41 Send private message

heavyusr:
If people are going to say 'the phone may ring and disrupt people', that does not do any harm or endanger safety


I don't know what is trying to be achieved, however arguably a phone, or anything else that disrupts a classroom could be harming the learning environment. It would depend on how harm was defined.

302 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37


  Reply # 750313 24-Jan-2013 16:47 Send private message

heavyusr: No-one has mentioned what info a teacher may see on an electronic device a student may have in clear view that could

A)Endanger a person's safety
B)Harm the learning environment

Anyone got any ideas?
If people are going to say 'the phone may ring and disrupt people', that does not do any harm or endanger safety


Videos of fights
Plans for fights
Evidence of cheating
Sexual material
Bullying 

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