Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.



BDFL
49992 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4645

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Subscriber

Topic # 37681 17-Jul-2009 09:38 Send private message

One of our Geekzone readers sent this letter to the Communications Minister Stephen Joyce, the presidents of InternetNZ and ISPANZ. We received a copy and I got authorisation to publish it here:


Dear Sirs,

Firstly, I just wanted to thank both the TUANZ and InternetNZ for their excellent work in the NZ Internet scene in the recent past.  Tireless efforts by organisations such as yours have vastly improved the quality and price of Internet access for New Zealanders in the past few years! 

It is also heartening to see the current National government continuing the good work completed to date in improving Internet connectivity and conditions in NZ.

I'd like to raise the issue of unmetered data transfers for national Internet traffic (that is; Internet data transferred between two endpoints, both located within New Zealand).  I am speaking from both the perspective of a private Internet user and as a member of an Internet based backup company (Databack Ltd).

Back in the early days of ADSL connections in NZ, unmetered national traffic was available, but we have taken a turn for the worse on this front and this charging model is no longer available to the average private user.  I see unmetered national traffic as being a very important aspect of Internet access, and without it, Internet based businesses and private users in NZ are being artificially disadvantaged.  There are a number of Internet based business models which are currently not economically viable due to this issue.  For example; businesses selling digital video products are particularly disadvantaged due to the size of the data transfers required.  In addition to businesses, private Internet users are needlessly being charged for traffic which could easily be transferred without charge.

From what I understand, the root cause of this issue is that the major NZ ISPs (namely Telecom & Telstra) have ceased their national peer connections to the rest of the country's ISPs.  This has in turn given the other ISPs no choice but to charge for all traffic, national and international.  There are probably other factors involved, but I see this action by Telecom and Telstra as both anti-competitive and unproductive; this attitude doesn't benefit Internet users or the economy.

A reversal of this situation and a return to unmetered national traffic will benefit all Internet users and providers in NZ.  If private users know they will not be charged for national traffic, they will go out of their way to source their data from within NZ rather than be charged for international traffic.  This obviously also benefits ISPs due to the continued high cost of wholesale international bandwidth.  Without national traffic metering for private users, business utilising digital delivery models become viable and innovation and the economy in general will be stimulated.

Are there any plans or actions in motion aimed at reversing the 'metered national traffic' situation?  Are we likely to see unmetered Internet access reinstated in NZ in the near future?

Thank you,

Sam Fickling.
Private Internet User
Member of 'DataBack Ltd'





View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
3946 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 175

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236365 17-Jul-2009 09:47 Send private message

Hear, hear. I remember when I first got broadband at home, NZ downloads were 1/10 of the cost of international. I'd love to see a return to cheap or free NZ data.

3747 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1013

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236438 17-Jul-2009 13:21 Send private message

The problem with unmetered data is people will abuse it. There is also still a cost to send that data locally / nationally - do you think all that fibre back-haul cost nothing to install / maintain?
However, I do agree that a reduced cost or maybe a bundle of national data included would be a great idea.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com

1624 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 69

Trusted

  Reply # 236459 17-Jul-2009 14:41 Send private message

I would like to add that we should have super fast nationwide data by now, and probably the big telcos would need to peer for that to happen too.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

1218 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 118

Trusted

  Reply # 236555 17-Jul-2009 21:08 Send private message

I agree, perhaps free is a little too much to ask & yes, it could be abused. I guess there's nothing to be lost by aiming high however :) The main issue here is that even a 1/10th cost model is currently not viable due to the main players refusing to come to the party. Until that is settled it's all moot!

Sam (Fickling) :)

1820 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 104

Trusted

  Reply # 236557 17-Jul-2009 21:18 Send private message

Biggest issue of course would be websites with say a .co.nz domain but are hosted overseas...no easy way to tell unless you trace route every site you visit

635 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 5


  Reply # 236588 18-Jul-2009 00:29 Send private message

Abused? What about every other country with uncapped plans? That's even international too. To say that it will be "abused" (and thus have some negative effect) is absurd.


DjShadow:
Biggest issue of course would be websites with say a .co.nz domain but are hosted overseas...no easy way to tell unless you trace route every site you visit


Well that's mostly a chicken and egg situation - a lot of NZ websites are hosted overseas exactly because of the lack of peering. If ISPs peered properly, then it would become cheaper to host NZ sites in NZ rather than in the US (see: TradeMe).

1200 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

  Reply # 236592 18-Jul-2009 01:10 Send private message

Hear Hear!

I agree completely, local traffic must be cheap enough already to allow enough of a local ratio of lines to backhaul to be able to included in the price of a internet connection. It's only ethernet switches and fibre runs.

This would enable so many services like my personal pet online backups, media transfers, legal entertainment content and be such a immersive technology environment that the benefits would flow into education and healthcare.

I would love to live in a society of one of  the most technology literate workforces in the world, knowing the best surgeon in our country can look at my scans if I'm sick not just the closest.

Wheres the ambition we used to have, where our schools and technology was the best, and we had a can do attitude. Citylink has already achieved it, this is what real competition can do.

The best time to invest in our future is in a recession. Lets teach, learn, build our way out of it.






Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.

3747 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1013

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236637 18-Jul-2009 10:50 Send private message

Screeb: Abused? What about every other country with uncapped plans? That's even international too. To say that it will be "abused" (and thus have some negative effect) is absurd.

Unfortunately it is not absurd, and is exactly what happened in the previous days of unmetered NZ traffic that some ISP's had. One of the main culprits was DC Hubs, shifting up into the Terabytes of data per month.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com

1200 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

  Reply # 236666 18-Jul-2009 14:14 Send private message

coffeebaron:
Screeb: Abused? What about every other country with uncapped plans? That's even international too. To say that it will be "abused" (and thus have some negative effect) is absurd.

Unfortunately it is not absurd, and is exactly what happened in the previous days of unmetered NZ traffic that some ISP's had. One of the main culprits was DC Hubs, shifting up into the Terabytes of data per month.


Yup, this is all true and was it not only last year on XNET?

My point is, since local traffic is so dirt cheap, I'm sure that ISP's could build into the cost of a normal connection a 50:1 ratio or similar for access to the national core?

The fibre's already mostly laid, put in some bigger switches in the core, watch the range of services florish. There are so many new services we could offer at work if traffic across town wasn't $2/$5/GB, look at Sky TV which had to pull their service offline because their helpdesk was flooded with people asking why their internet bills were huge.

We can deal with the abusers on a one by one basis, but to hold a whole society in the technical dark ages because of a few?





Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.

1218 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 118

Trusted

  Reply # 236670 18-Jul-2009 14:23 Send private message

Actually, speaking of X-Net, who do free 'local' traffic (ie; to the XNet servers), is there any reason why they (or any other ISP) couldn't offer free traffic between it's users?

7756 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 318

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236731 18-Jul-2009 19:18 Send private message

What makes you guys think using the backhaul network is free/cheap?

You > Exchange > Backhaul Network > ISP's Handover Point > ISP's Network




3747 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1013

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236735 18-Jul-2009 19:30 Send private message

Try signing up for a guaranteed 80GB of traffic per month = $165 on a 256Kbps UNS connection. OK, so this is a commercial hi grade service, but how much would it cost to do the same for residential? ISP's work on very slim margins, you would need a reasonable price hike to make anything near unmetered national data a reality.
This was all fine a few years a go when 5GB per month was a huge amount of data, but not so now.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com

635 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 5


  Reply # 236738 18-Jul-2009 19:40 Send private message

coffeebaron:
Unfortunately it is not absurd, and is exactly what happened in the previous days of unmetered NZ traffic that some ISP's had. One of the main culprits was DC Hubs, shifting up into the Terabytes of data per month.


coffeebaron:
Try signing up for a guaranteed 80GB of traffic per month = $165 on a 256Kbps UNS connection. OK, so this is a commercial hi grade service, but how much would it cost to do the same for residential? ISP's work on very slim margins, you would need a reasonable price hike to make anything near unmetered national data a reality.
This was all fine a few years a go when 5GB per month was a huge amount of data, but not so now.



But how is that different to other countries? How do THEY handle this "abuse"? Why is NZ any different?

3bit.com
5889 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 195

Moderator
Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 236748 18-Jul-2009 20:13 Send private message

I don't think national traffic should be free, as with anything if it's free it will be abused.  The flipside of this is an ISP's billing engine may not be setup to count traffic differently so there will be costs involved in installing hardware/software to count traffic differently.

National traffic also does cost to backhaul around the country.  Kordia don't give ISPs free bandwidth, so if national was free, more capacity would be needed, so ISPs would require a larger pipe down the country.  With ADSL margins already very, very slim, this overhead has to be covered somewhere else.

Maybe a smarter solution would be that content providers such as TVNZ, Sky, et al peer directly at a peering exchange (such as the APE), then ISPs can pass data directly between them, and zero rate this.

Last query, for the normal ADSL user, who would use copious amounts of national bandwidth anyway?




1200 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3

Trusted

  Reply # 236763 18-Jul-2009 21:41 Send private message


I can understand all the arguments about UNS, and the fact that yes there is more gear needed than fibre runs and ethernet switches, but we used to have free national traffic, still do at some ISP's and on more expensive fibre connections from as least that I know of Orcon, Telecom, Horizon Pacific.

Why not have the government fund what Telecom proposed last year, that a series of 13(?) local peering exchanges are placed around the country and anyone which brings there own cable to that location can peer for free.

Free national traffic really fell out of the tree when TelstraClear decided to make a gob of money from it, and now local traffic trombones through Australia for local NZ content.

How is THAT cheaper than local peering...




Tyler - Parnell Geek - iPhone 3G - Lenovo X301 - Kaseya - Great Western Steak House, these are some of my favourite things.

 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic




Twitter »
Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





Trending now »

Hot discussions in our forums right now:

How good is your general Science Knowledge?
Created by Aredwood, last reply by joker97 on 31-Oct-2014 23:44 (39 replies)
Pages... 2 3


Government Limos
Created by networkn, last reply by Bung on 31-Oct-2014 12:39 (94 replies)
Pages... 5 6 7


Snap refuses to replace faulty gear
Created by Brendan, last reply by MadEngineer on 28-Oct-2014 19:07 (92 replies)
Pages... 5 6 7


Sky will be 'upgrading software' of My Sky to connect to internet. What does that mean?
Created by Geektastic, last reply by NonprayingMantis on 31-Oct-2014 23:55 (27 replies)
Pages... 2


Shutup and take my money (via NFC on my mobile phone)
Created by sxz, last reply by sonyxperiageek on 31-Oct-2014 22:34 (24 replies)
Pages... 2


Speed limit when overtaking? Teach me please.
Created by nakedmolerat, last reply by joker97 on 28-Oct-2014 17:13 (123 replies)
Pages... 7 8 9


Uber: a cheaper taxi ride?
Created by kingdragonfly, last reply by livisun on 31-Oct-2014 14:47 (34 replies)
Pages... 2 3


OneDrive code giveaway - go!
Created by freitasm, last reply by pgsheng on 1-Nov-2014 01:50 (33 replies)
Pages... 2 3



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.

Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.