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ajw

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  Reply # 249513 21-Aug-2009 18:07 Send private message

PaulBrislen: As Steve says, it's all about asymmetry.

2D will have a smaller incoming rate from us BUT that's matched with a smaller outgoing rate.

And besides, the deal with have with 2D gives them a significant advantage over the traditional 15c/min each way.

See also the Independent and possibly NBR when/if they get to put the story up again.

Cheers

Paul


This deal is only applicable between 2D and Vfone. Where does it say that 2D and Telecom have done a deal on MTR's.

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Reply # 249522 21-Aug-2009 19:10 Send private message

You know, I'm starting to wonder what the point is in arguing with a corporate shill an "External Communications Manager". There's no winning. He'd no doubt find himself in hot water if he were to conceed that the ComCom is doing an important job in trying to reduce prices (by way of fostering competition by reducing barriers to entry - NOT pass-through!).

Paul, please return to Computerworld, where your job might be more appreciated by mobile users (just kidding! Tongue out). And I'm sure you don't enjoy it as much as you would admit - I don't know how anyone could bear "Externally Communicating" for a living.

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  Reply # 249523 21-Aug-2009 19:16

Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.

@AJW, I don't speak for Telecom so can't tell you what they've agreed to or not agreed to. You'll have to ask them.

Cheers

Paul




Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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  Reply # 249524 21-Aug-2009 19:16

Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.

@AJW, I don't speak for Telecom so can't tell you what they've agreed to or not agreed to. You'll have to ask them.

Cheers

Paul




Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


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  Reply # 249525 21-Aug-2009 19:18 Send private message

I think Paul has done a fantastic job in the past couple of weeks trying to explain the issues involved here. I don't agree with every viewpoint of his but respect his right to have his own views.

There is no clear cut right or wrong answer to the MTR issue - it's a matter of putting things on the table and discussing them and some of the issues and arguments that people have put forward are very valid. I would have thought the opportunity to directly express opinions and viewpoints with representatives of various telcos would be a fantastic one.

The commerce commission along with Vodafone and Telecom have done plenty to reduce barriers to entry into the market including spending significant amounts of money developing procedures for co-siting that 2degrees demanded and then then chose to ignore.

If peole are unappy with the prices set by Telecom or Vodafone there are plenty of other options, the pricing set my many virtual operators including TelstraClear, Compass and Callplus/Slingshot is very good.

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  Reply # 249526 21-Aug-2009 19:20 Send private message

PaulBrislen: Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.


My point is that it's not much of a discussion when one side simply cannot give in, regardless of facts. And indeed I will no longer be participating in this thread if I can help it.


I think Paul has done a fantastic job in the past couple of weeks trying to explain the issues involved here.

There is no clear cut right or wrong answer to the MTR issue - it's a matter of putting things on the table and discussing them and some of the issues and arguments that people have put forward are very valid. I would have thought the opportunity to directly express opinions and viewpoints with representatives of various telcos would be a fantastic one.


Don't get me wrong - it can be good for getting more infomation and clarifications - it's just not particularly useful for debates.

ajw

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  Reply # 249528 21-Aug-2009 19:27 Send private message

PaulBrislen: Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.

@AJW, I don't speak for Telecom so can't tell you what they've agreed to or not agreed to. You'll have to ask them.

Cheers

Paul


So therefore they haven't an advantage in the marketplace.

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  Reply # 249548 21-Aug-2009 21:19

ajw:
PaulBrislen: Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.

@AJW, I don't speak for Telecom so can't tell you what they've agreed to or not agreed to. You'll have to ask them.

Cheers

Paul


So therefore they haven't an advantage in the marketplace.


Not sure I follow - who hasn't got an advantage? Two Degrees or Telecom?

I don't know the detail of the deal between Telecom and TD but clearly it's good enough for TD that they felt they could launch a service.

Between the sale of spectrum to TD, the national roaming agreement, the co-location agreement and the termination rate deal I think they've got more of an opportunity to make a fist of it than any other player in the market at any other time.

When Vodafone launched the MTRs were 50c/min.

The MVNOs don't get this kind of leg-up into the market.

I think Ernie at TUANZ and the Commission and some of the observers out there forget we are at the start of a vibrant and busy market place. Instead of two operators using entirely different technologies we have nine operators using the same technology. They think we're moving from two to three players and that's simply not the case.

It's never been easier for customers to move between providers and it's never been easier for providers to offer a good deal to the customers. If you don't like what's on offer from one, move to another! These days you don't even need a new phone.

Cheers

Paul




Paul Brislen
Head of Corporate Communications
Vodafone

http://forum.vodafone.co.nz


ajw

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  Reply # 249595 22-Aug-2009 08:58 Send private message

PaulBrislen:
ajw:
PaulBrislen: Well hell. I thought we were discussing the issue at hand. Feel free not to read any more of my replies if you prefer Screeb.

@AJW, I don't speak for Telecom so can't tell you what they've agreed to or not agreed to. You'll have to ask them.

Cheers

Paul


So therefore they haven't an advantage in the marketplace.


Not sure I follow - who hasn't got an advantage? Two Degrees or Telecom?

I don't know the detail of the deal between Telecom and TD but clearly it's good enough for TD that they felt they could launch a service.

Between the sale of spectrum to TD, the national roaming agreement, the co-location agreement and the termination rate deal I think they've got more of an opportunity to make a fist of it than any other player in the market at any other time.

When Vodafone launched the MTRs were 50c/min.

The MVNOs don't get this kind of leg-up into the market.

I think Ernie at TUANZ and the Commission and some of the observers out there forget we are at the start of a vibrant and busy market place. Instead of two operators using entirely different technologies we have nine operators using the same technology. They think we're moving from two to three players and that's simply not the case.

It's never been easier for customers to move between providers and it's never been easier for providers to offer a good deal to the customers. If you don't like what's on offer from one, move to another! These days you don't even need a new phone.

Cheers

Paul



Paul if it is so competitive in NZ why is it in Australia you can get unlimited calling and ! GIG of data for $AU99 per month. And don't try and tell me it is because of population. Here in NZ it costs about $600-800 million to build a nationwide GSM network and it would cost about six times as much in Australia.
And by the way Virgin mobile is a MVNO using the Optus network.
And why in Aussie did Vfone and 3 merge because as you know they could not get market share from Optus and Telstra. Vodafone New Zealand did not launch, you bought the existing business from Bellsouth and grew it accordingly. And if it so easy to build a nationwide network as you infer why haven't other operators years ago. And why has it taken so long for MVNO's to be established in the marketplace.






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  Reply # 249606 22-Aug-2009 09:46 Send private message

Just one to factor in - Virgin Mobile in Australia is a MVNO but is now 100% owned by Optus and the Virgin brand is used under licence.

Virgin Mobile clocked up *very* significant losses in it's first few years of business of around A$100 million from memory. Virgin had to inject significant capital into the business to keep it afloat. When cash again became an issue Virgin decided to pull the plug and sell to Optus for (from memory ) around A$30 million.

Pricing might be cheap. It doesn't mean the business models are sustainable.


ajw

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  Reply # 249609 22-Aug-2009 09:49 Send private message

sbiddle: Just one to factor in - Virgin Mobile in Australia is a MVNO but is now 100% owned by Optus and the Virgin brand is used under licence.

Virgin Mobile clocked up *very* significant losses in it's first few years of business of around A$100 million from memory. Virgin had to inject significant capital into the business to keep it afloat. When cash again became an issue Virgin decided to pull the plug and sell to Optus for (from memory ) around A$30 million.

Pricing might be cheap. It doesn't mean the business models are sustainable.



That plan has been advertised on their website for about the last year. If these plans were not sustainable and they could not make make money from them they would not offer them.

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  Reply # 249610 22-Aug-2009 09:55 Send private message

ajw:And why in Aussie did Vfone and 3 merge because as you know they could not get market share from Optus and Telstra.


The Australian market is incredibly complex. 3 and Telstra built their own joint networks. Vodafone and Optus built their own joint networks. Crown own most of the physical towers and companies lease space for their panels and exuipment.

it wasn't just about market share - Hutchinson had to use Telstra's GSM network for roaming outside their own coverage area and had fought for a long time to gain access to Next G. Obviously from a business point of view a joint venture with Vodafone that gave them accces to Vodafone's nationwide 900 3G network was seen as a better deal. Hutchison have lost something like A$3 billion in Australia and obviously saw it as a way to stop those losses.


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  Reply # 249612 22-Aug-2009 10:13 Send private message

ajw:
sbiddle: Just one to factor in - Virgin Mobile in Australia is a MVNO but is now 100% owned by Optus and the Virgin brand is used under licence.

Virgin Mobile clocked up *very* significant losses in it's first few years of business of around A$100 million from memory. Virgin had to inject significant capital into the business to keep it afloat. When cash again became an issue Virgin decided to pull the plug and sell to Optus for (from memory ) around A$30 million.

Pricing might be cheap. It doesn't mean the business models are sustainable.



That plan has been advertised on their website for about the last year. If these plans were not sustainable and they could not make make money from them they would not offer them.


Just because a company offers a plan doesn't mean it's profitable. $10 TXT is a classic example of that.

When you have a large customer base cross subsidies exist between customers whenever you start offering any sort of flat rate plan whether it be food, internet or home phone lines. Remember Telecom can't charge more for a rural connection that may cost them a lot more to provide and then every other telco in NZ has to fund this calculated shortfall.


ajw

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  Reply # 249703 22-Aug-2009 17:53 Send private message

sbiddle:
ajw:
sbiddle: Just one to factor in - Virgin Mobile in Australia is a MVNO but is now 100% owned by Optus and the Virgin brand is used under licence.

Virgin Mobile clocked up *very* significant losses in it's first few years of business of around A$100 million from memory. Virgin had to inject significant capital into the business to keep it afloat. When cash again became an issue Virgin decided to pull the plug and sell to Optus for (from memory ) around A$30 million.

Pricing might be cheap. It doesn't mean the business models are sustainable.



That plan has been advertised on their website for about the last year. If these plans were not sustainable and they could not make make money from them they would not offer them.


Just because a company offers a plan doesn't mean it's profitable. $10 TXT is a classic example of that.

When you have a large customer base cross subsidies exist between customers whenever you start offering any sort of flat rate plan whether it be food, internet or home phone lines. Remember Telecom can't charge more for a rural connection that may cost them a lot more to provide and then every other telco in NZ has to fund this calculated shortfall.



Which is why the kiwi share needs radical surgery.

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  Reply # 249708 22-Aug-2009 18:29 Send private message

ajw:
Which is why the kiwi share needs radical surgery.


Sure does..

Commerce Commission enforced regulation that ensures customers will receive annual price increases.


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