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Master Geek
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Topic # 66118 12-Aug-2010 21:32 Send private message

Who is right ? the developer who wants to build a home at a reasonable price or ....Chorus who wants to sell another box to decorate customer walls and double the amount of battery waste for the bargin.
You decide !!  follow this link below.

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog241a3e5c0ea2e68d134ace0cac4347a6.jpg


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  Reply # 366982 12-Aug-2010 22:48 Send private message

I see your point. While it does seem to make sense to use the alarm UPS, I guess Chorus are wanting a standardized setup which is deployed elsewhere and where customers or other suppliers (e.g. the Alarm company) can't screw something up. How much will they save by sharing with the alarm?







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  Reply # 366998 13-Aug-2010 01:19 Send private message

Security Alarm systems have been used to provide backup power to other systems for decades ( intercoms, Garage door openers, wireless doorbells etc) the idea that these Alarm guys could screw connecting 5-12vdc to an ONT/Router is not likely.

From the perspective of "savings" there is of course cash, time, environmental and energy. Savings will also depend who you are, the customer, ISP or the Telco as each player wins in this scenario.

For example from the Telco?s point of view they can

1. Provide a cheaper connection buy utilising the existing Alarm PSU (APSU) and save on the cost of supply of the APC/CYBER Shield PSU ( $100-150)

2. Deliver the whole service at a cheaper wholesale rate due to not having to provide battery replacement/maintenance

3. Reduce incoming calls to their call centres due to CPE outages during power cuts

4. Eliminate the 12-18 month MTBF ONT system crash and equipment reset issue and the truck roll that often requires.

5. Maintain theTelco's image as a green Eco friendly company by reducing waste.

What you need to understand is the set of facts around the existing PSU deployment stratergy of Telecom NZ (CHORUS) which installs a FTTH battery/PSU on every site that (a) it does not work during a power cut (b) does not have a maintenance plan (c) wastes electrical energy (d) doubles the amount of batteries going into land fills (e) wastes gasoline doing all of that.

Currently CHORUS is asking new housing developers to pay for something that does not work and the reason I get back from them is that since there is a warehouse full of these PSU's they need to be all used up !! Apparently when ordering the ONT's ALCATEL supplied a PSU with each one and no one in CHORUS has the Bulos to put them on trademe or explain to higher management that they got over sold by ALCATEL.

So there it is.... but don't worry the good folks at CFH and NBNco are onto this issue and the Telco's are about to be told where and when they can "place" their PSU :-)

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  Reply # 367003 13-Aug-2010 06:28 Send private message

Of course that relies on every house having an alarm - something that is far from a real world scenario. It also relies on that alarm being located near the demarc point or location that the ONT is installed, which is one again not the case in the real world for many existing houses.

I see Chorus's new backup units being a significantly better solution for the vast majority of existing houses, however in new houses then there are obvious benefits in a fully integrated solution as has happened with the greenfields fibre developments.


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  Reply # 367006 13-Aug-2010 06:57 Send private message

In order to provide a sound opinion, I'll need Chorus to come out and install a FTTH node so I can examine it in detail. When can I expect my appointment?




iPad Air + iPhone 5S + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

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  Reply # 367016 13-Aug-2010 08:20 Send private message

I am with you on this one AlarmNZ.

Apparently when ordering the ONT's ALCATEL supplied a PSU with each one and no one in CHORUS has the Bulos to put them on trademe or explain to higher management that they got over sold by ALCATEL.


Then there is the politic's, always the politics!


Cyril

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  Reply # 367017 13-Aug-2010 08:21 Send private message

The current picture Neil is only current for now, but I'm not at liberty to say what they are changing to , only that they have other options and they are expected very soon and there will be retro fit.

You know my views on this already, The discussion really is for Telcom Wholesale and Chorus as well as SP's as we are consuming the product now and you know this has been one of my key hot points with them.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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  Reply # 367024 13-Aug-2010 08:35 Send private message

Why can't this be taken a step further...

This is more a power grid issue than just a telco/security issue.

Perhaps all houses should come with a battery back up system, installed by the power-co, that provides (a) back up for essential services (telco & security) but (b) improves householder's ability to connect micro-generation (such as solar) to the house's power supply.

I understand that different houses/situations would require different degrees of back up scale, inverters, battery banks etc, but if it's made standardised and modular, upgrading could be a potential option...?

Maybe it can just come with the charger all our electric cars are going to have.... :P



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  Reply # 367031 13-Aug-2010 08:53 Send private message

K1Wi.... That is exactly correct and you understand the big picture going forward, This new "class" of home power supply ( now under construction or in development across Australasia ) has the ability to charge 100ah of batteries and take in solar and supply inverters.

The Alarm power supply unit (APSU) is being chosen by developers as it is the primary backup powering device because all new homes have them fitted anyway and it makes logical sense.
Traditional UPS devices are too inefficient and wasteful.
The Alarm industry is making no provision for charging cars, I would assume that vehicles will come with their own battery charger.

"Think of an ALARM power supply as a UPS with a built-in PC server"

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  Reply # 367037 13-Aug-2010 09:22 Send private message

maverick: The current picture Neil is only current for now, but I'm not at liberty to say what they are changing to , only that they have other options and they are expected very soon and there will be retro fit.

You know my views on this already, The discussion really is for Telcom Wholesale and Chorus as well as SP's as we are consuming the product now and you know this has been one of my key hot points with them.


I agree with Phil on this; I've seen some pretty impressive stuff alreaady - and the key thing is what becomes widespread and easily supportable by the entire industry. It's hard enough already to co-ordinate multiple partners (SP/Chorus/Downer/etc) and provide a good service, and it's something all western telco's are having to grapple with.

There isn't a right answer that will make everyone happy - but work has been done, and a lot of brainpower is being applied.




________
AK



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  Reply # 367040 13-Aug-2010 09:29 Send private message

Sbiddle has a point...what to do about existing homes ? well by the time FTTD happens all those existing homes with ALARMs will upgrade to obtain connectivity via Fibre so they will be sorted.

For those homes without ALARMS they will simply obtain a bare bones FTTD power supply ( no fire/security devices) from the local store.

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  Reply # 367045 13-Aug-2010 09:42 Send private message

Why don't they use the ups to power both the ONT and router? Just powering the ONT seems... well, stupid. Is there some capacity issue with the ups being unable to supply both the ONT and router (not likely)?

One of the advantages of having the separate power supply's is a longer run time, however, there is the issue of monitoring the state of the battery in the stand alone ups that you don't have with the alarm.

I think I'd want it separate (for the longer run time), but, I'd demand (or just change after they left) the set-up so both the router and ont was on the ups.



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  Reply # 367046 13-Aug-2010 09:44 Send private message

Maverick may have some later information ..but the picture cannot change significantly for the backup power supply situation, however incorporating the RGW/ONT into a single device would make sense.

The Alarm industry across Australasia is gearing up to tackle the backup home power supply market for new FTTH installations and they will in most cases succeed as their whole industry depends on taking a large section of this space.

I have heard the NZ and Australian Federal government will if necessary prepare legislation to keep the Telco?s from dominating the home power supply industry by ensuring customers right to supply power to the ONT.



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  Reply # 367051 13-Aug-2010 09:54 Send private message

dolsen

Why stop at two UPS's hey lets just install a FARM :-)

1,2,3 UPS .....sorry but they are dumb and wasteful energy wise. and frankly do not cut it.

A single Home battery is the answer and the ALARM power supply is required to ensure such a battery is in good condition and can alert the Home owner or service agent via TXT/EMAIL to replace when it fails.

Remember all electronic devices run on DC and UPS converts AC to DC to AC for those appliances

What you are suggesting is using an UPS to convert AC to DC to AC and to DC devices !@#$%!!

How about just AC to DC ....dolsen ? please do not complicate our lives with a UPS

thanks

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  Reply # 367054 13-Aug-2010 10:04 Send private message

dolsen: Why don't they use the ups to power both the ONT and router? Just powering the ONT seems... well, stupid. Is there some capacity issue with the ups being unable to supply both the ONT and router (not likely)?

One of the advantages of having the separate power supply's is a longer run time, however, there is the issue of monitoring the state of the battery in the stand alone ups that you don't have with the alarm.

I think I'd want it separate (for the longer run time), but, I'd demand (or just change after they left) the set-up so both the router and ont was on the ups.



Presently you couldn't do that due to the seperate voltages of both units at this stage it's 12v and 5 Volts, this is the original issue we have as the Pilot supplier with Telecom and Chorus on this... They are aware of the issue and we expect to see a chaneg shortly that covers this issue and as I said it will be retro fitted. 


There is a lot of work happening around the industry around this as Antonios has pointed out , trust me we are giving this a lot of thought and getting a lot of input as an Industry, as Active electronics move into the house these are important issues as AlarmNZ is pointing out, but also as Antonios is highlighting but right now there is not a perfect solution... but it is being worked on, we have several hundred custys already running on the FTTH network and have been for a while so we are pretty aware of issues being highlighted by Alarms , Power etc.

Good topic btw  




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  Reply # 367061 13-Aug-2010 10:27 Send private message

dolsen: Why don't they use the ups to power both the ONT and router? Just powering the ONT seems... well, stupid. Is there some capacity issue with the ups being unable to supply both the ONT and router (not likely)?

One of the advantages of having the separate power supply's is a longer run time, however, there is the issue of monitoring the state of the battery in the stand alone ups that you don't have with the alarm.

I think I'd want it separate (for the longer run time), but, I'd demand (or just change after they left) the set-up so both the router and ont was on the ups.


A UPS is a very inefficient way of doing things - you're converting a DC supply to 230VAC to then run plugpacks that convert this back to 12VDC or 5VDC. A backup unit supplying 5VDC/12VDC to power equipment directly is far better.

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