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88 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 368705 17-Aug-2010 15:15 Send private message


Graemeh

Here is an image thay may suit you better. FYI Most cordless phones will run on 9-12vdc Check yours :-)

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/8cff3ed96962bb48c37e9f2b60ceca98.jpg

You have little faith in our community spirit and while the average person may not care that much, the local councils and government agencies will keep such wastage in check.

Look the race is on to secure a logical home Power supply methodology.....and from what I can see, there are two trains of thought.

1. Just add more and more power supplies, batteries and UPS 's as required and do not consolidate.

2. Consolidate home backup power around a single universal system that supplies multiple voltages.

So Graemeh where do you stand ?



Here is a thought ...

Tesla was right about AC for transmission but Edison was right about DC for usefulness...


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  Reply # 368716 17-Aug-2010 15:32 Send private message

The million dollar question now is who is responsible and accepts liability for the unit, maintenance, etc ?




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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  Reply # 368720 17-Aug-2010 15:39 Send private message

Maybe it should become a power company thing - the battery is located alongside the meter?





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  Reply # 368722 17-Aug-2010 15:47 Send private message

Zeon: Maybe it should become a power company thing - the battery is located alongside the meter?


But if it goes off line and takes out the Telco services do you think the power company will want to accept responsibility for fixing it, so if the unit fails who do you ring ? and who takes the lead in getting sorted, The Telco companies have a process that address this already, so do we bring alarm and power companies into this as well ? if we do, it brings in whole new layer of complexity, responsibility between different types of service providers would be nightmarish, response times and commitment dates are all issue that could cause big issues, so this is not an easy question to answer no matter what we actually would like to see.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

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  Reply # 368731 17-Aug-2010 15:57 Send private message

maverick:
Zeon: Maybe it should become a power company thing - the battery is located alongside the meter?


But if it goes off line and takes out the Telco services do you think the power company will want to accept responsibility for fixing it, so if the unit fails who do you ring ? and who takes the lead in getting sorted, The Telco companies have a process that address this already, so do we bring alarm and power companies into this as well ? if we do, it brings in whole new layer of complexity, responsibility between different types of service providers would be nightmarish, response times and commitment dates are all issue that could cause big issues, so this is not an easy question to answer no matter what we actually would like to see.


While I see your point, it is at the end of the day about providing power to your various systems. With more interest in off-grid technology maybe that should be part of the solution.

I don't think the alarm company should be responsible for the telecommunications side but either have someone (or their power equipment supplier) take over with their own, service agnostic system maybe as part of off-grid stuff or each provider supplies their own.







88 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 368737 17-Aug-2010 16:07 Send private message

The answer is... the home owner is responsible for their home backup power system. There are many reasons for this and not at least is liability.

Some home owners want more than 4 hours backup time some will want ( need perhaps) 24-48 hours.

The home owner should be able to contract who ever the like to maintain the Battery or alternatively do it themselves.

There is no extra layer of complexity its actually business as usual, it?s the Telecom CHORUS who has trouble understanding reality . Case in point TELECOM does not maintain any of its business customers UPS's , why ? they have no infrastructure or personnel allocated to do this even with the current FTTH installations ?..HELL I heard Telecom can?t even maintain ,their roadside UPS units.

Telecom, in fact no Telco in its right mind will step into this battery issue as it?s a legal minefield and when you delegate the responsibility to the home owner all is good. ?.common sense will prevail.

Power to the People Brother !!

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  Reply # 368742 17-Aug-2010 16:10 Send private message

Zeon:
maverick:
Zeon: Maybe it should become a power company thing - the battery is located alongside the meter?


But if it goes off line and takes out the Telco services do you think the power company will want to accept responsibility for fixing it, so if the unit fails who do you ring ? and who takes the lead in getting sorted, The Telco companies have a process that address this already, so do we bring alarm and power companies into this as well ? if we do, it brings in whole new layer of complexity, responsibility between different types of service providers would be nightmarish, response times and commitment dates are all issue that could cause big issues, so this is not an easy question to answer no matter what we actually would like to see.


While I see your point, it is at the end of the day about providing power to your various systems. With more interest in off-grid technology maybe that should be part of the solution.

I don't think the alarm company should be responsible for the telecommunications side but either have someone (or their power equipment supplier) take over with their own, service agnostic system maybe as part of off-grid stuff or each provider supplies their own.


So we now get into the loop, I as a service provider have lost services to my Customer as he has rung me and told me his phone and internet are down, who do I go too, presently the process is  a job logged through to Chrous who support GPON, RGW and UPS do they now also do alarms ? how do we separate services and support , what happens if the independent support company checks / fixes the integrated UPS but the Telco services are still down what now another company callout ? so do I want my Telco support services handled by a Non Telco support company... do you ?




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications



88 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 368754 17-Aug-2010 16:20 Send private message


Zeon

It is ludicrous to suggest that the ALARM company will be responsible for the communications, an ALARM system is mainly a power supply with communications, not a communications controller or switch/router device. Reliable broadband communications a requires backup battery that?s all that is being suggested.

FYI lots of businesses use the Power Fail detection function on their Alarm System to signal an IT Dept call out. In many cases AirCon is monitored also?.hey do not underestimate the flexibility of these Alarm Power Supply Units (APSU)

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  Reply # 368760 17-Aug-2010 16:28 Send private message

ALARMNZ:
Graemeh

Here is an image thay may suit you better. FYI Most cordless phones will run on 9-12vdc Check yours :-)

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/8cff3ed96962bb48c37e9f2b60ceca98.jpg

You have little faith in our community spirit and while the average person may not care that much, the local councils and government agencies will keep such wastage in check.

Look the race is on to secure a logical home Power supply methodology.....and from what I can see, there are two trains of thought.

1. Just add more and more power supplies, batteries and UPS 's as required and do not consolidate.

2. Consolidate home backup power around a single universal system that supplies multiple voltages.

So Graemeh where do you stand ?



Here is a thought ...

Tesla was right about AC for transmission but Edison was right about DC for usefulness...



The phone has a nice big LCD display on it.  It still looks like one that runs of a plugpack.

I think option 2 is a good one (I'm assuming this is what you are promoting).  It's not going to be easy though as you introduce problems of how to distribute the multiple voltages around the house.  Then you have the problems that Maverick is bring up of who maintains the power supply.  Also, how do you deal with the situation where a customer is complaining they only get 30 mins runtime on their battery backup and it's because of all the devices they have plugged in.

If you put the base station for the phone close to the cabinet with backup power then that solves the distribution problem.  These phones will be more expensive though as you need to have a separate base station and charger as it is unlikely you will return them to your comms cupboard for charging.

I quite like the idea of the power coming from the alarm system because as you say it is then monitored.  Of course there is no reason why you can't have a standalone UPS with an ethernet port that is monitored too.

This thread has reminded me I really must do something about switching my alarm over from the current dialup setup and remove the phone line.

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  Reply # 368761 17-Aug-2010 16:30 Send private message

maverick:
Zeon:
maverick:
Zeon: Maybe it should become a power company thing - the battery is located alongside the meter?


But if it goes off line and takes out the Telco services do you think the power company will want to accept responsibility for fixing it, so if the unit fails who do you ring ? and who takes the lead in getting sorted, The Telco companies have a process that address this already, so do we bring alarm and power companies into this as well ? if we do, it brings in whole new layer of complexity, responsibility between different types of service providers would be nightmarish, response times and commitment dates are all issue that could cause big issues, so this is not an easy question to answer no matter what we actually would like to see.


While I see your point, it is at the end of the day about providing power to your various systems. With more interest in off-grid technology maybe that should be part of the solution.

I don't think the alarm company should be responsible for the telecommunications side but either have someone (or their power equipment supplier) take over with their own, service agnostic system maybe as part of off-grid stuff or each provider supplies their own.


So we now get into the loop, I as a service provider have lost services to my Customer as he has rung me and told me his phone and internet are down, who do I go too, presently the process is  a job logged through to Chrous who support GPON, RGW and UPS do they now also do alarms ? how do we separate services and support , what happens if the independent support company checks / fixes the integrated UPS but the Telco services are still down what now another company callout ? so do I want my Telco support services handled by a Non Telco support company... do you ?


Tell your customer they need power to use your service. In the two scenarios I put, if the user is using their own, household-wide solution then its their problem. If the ONT has the power light on and no connection light then you start looking into it, otherwise they need to power that ONT.

If no If the communications provider, as part of their package provides an independent UPS then its them if the UPS has failed for example.

Don't approach the scanario with thinking how it used to be with powered copper. The world changes and part of the exercise isn't just to switch out the medium but also the way it is supported.







88 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 368769 17-Aug-2010 16:43 Send private message

Maverick

OK firstly when Home owners in the future fit an APSU, their annual connection reliability will reach 99.97% ( presently 99.7%) and before your customer detects an outage it will be repaired automatically, so there will be many less calls to the ISP call centre.


But lets assume there is an outage somewhere and this can only attributed to ten things

1. Core Network Switch Failure
2. Core Network Router/Modem Failure
3. Core Network Cable Fault
4. Local Network Line Router/Modem Failure
5. Local Network Power Outage
6. Local Network Line Cable Fault
7. Customers Router/Modem Failure
8. Customers Local Cable Fault
9. Customers Power Outage
10. Customer in Error

Lets Play?. Make you make a choice ?.


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  Reply # 368812 17-Aug-2010 18:06 Send private message

ALARMNZ: Maverick

OK firstly when Home owners in the future fit an APSU, their annual connection reliability will reach 99.97% ( presently 99.7%) and before your customer detects an outage it will be repaired automatically, so there will be many less calls to the ISP call centre.


But lets assume there is an outage somewhere and this can only attributed to ten things

1. Core Network Switch Failure
2. Core Network Router/Modem Failure
3. Core Network Cable Fault
4. Local Network Line Router/Modem Failure
5. Local Network Power Outage
6. Local Network Line Cable Fault
7. Customers Router/Modem Failure
8. Customers Local Cable Fault
9. Customers Power Outage
10. Customer in Error

Lets Play?. Make you make a choice ?.



Of these 7,8 and 9 are the only one relevant to the discussion I feel, 1 - 6 are really already covered as we do now as a BAU process, networks have different alarming systems right out to the edge so we generally know at what point we need to be looking. 7 thru 10 is also a BAU process with the fault teams that will deal with the customer they will make a discussion on what the next steps are, i.e call out required etc.

The discussion here is around how we handle the new deployments with active electronics now being handled in the customer premises and seeing if there is a natural fit for an all in one unit that is capable of doing a multifunction role, Alarm, RGW and fibre ONT,.

The problem I see from a support level is that we are combining 2 different sets of services being powered by a single supply unit, so for example we have Telco service being supplied by Company A and Alarm services being supplied by Company B but both sets of services being powered by a common unit, I like the idea of a single unit being capable of doing the lot (decrease the footprint in cabinets, Eco friendlier etc) but I also see a natural segregation of services Telco and Alarm... Not saying one way is right or wrong I am just saying there is some issues at a bigger picture level around support requirements.

This comes back to the main points of who is responsible for this unit ?, we all won't our equipment protected and online for our services 111 , Alarms companies for alarming etc so a backup unit is a requirement, so who is responsible for this unit and the actual costs ?,

My example would be we send a Chorus tech to a custy site because the customer has phoned up and reported an issue, we have diagnosed that there is a power issue of some sort (no lights anywhere), So who responds to this Alarm support company or Chorus or both, does the unit get replaced and who does it, how would the unit be reprogrammed for the Alarm as Chorus would have no idea and all he is after is getting the Telco services back online , he also won't know if the alarm unit is working or not , it's not his responsibility and vise versa for the the Alarm company getting his stuff back up and running.

It's not an easy answer and whilst power has some synergies possibly combining services may not ... difficult questions but ones we need to look at




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

627 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  Reply # 368845 17-Aug-2010 19:11 Send private message

maverick: The million dollar question now is who is responsible and accepts liability for the unit, maintenance, etc ?

That's a big issue.

Another one with a single battery system is whether the ONT vendor will warrant the ONT if it's used with a non-standard (i.e. theirs) power supply.



88 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 368848 17-Aug-2010 19:18 Send private message

Maverick

Firstly there is no intention to combine services , the fact is that these various services use a single power source except its AC right now, not DC ( in the Future) and if the active communications electronics (ONT/RGW) does not have power you call the sparky - Right.? why should that change ?

Customer calls in and says the service is down,

A) If the ISP can see the Router but the customer cannot, point( 7) & (9) is ticked off and clearly there is a Local cable fault (8) or the customer is in error(10).

B) If the ISP cannot see the router but the customer can, then clearly point (8) & (9) is ticked off and the RGW portion of (7) or the customer is in error(10).

C) If neither the ISP or the Customer can see the router then clearly there is a problem related to point (9) or the customer is in error(10).

In terms of response

A) This would be the home wiring contractor ( could be range of Companies or the Customer)
B) This will require a CHORUS or Telco Contractor response to replace to ONT or repair the Fibre connection.
C) This would be the home Power Supply contractor ( could be range of Companies or the Customer)

It should be noted that the Home wiring company is normally the Sparky and also the Home power supply ( most Home alarms are fitted by Sparkies now)

IT must be the responsibility of the customer to provide and maintain power after all they pay that bill - Right, while I understand the ISP/Telco wants to provide a good service, but they also need to understand the correct demarcation point. ( customer owns power)



88 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 368868 17-Aug-2010 19:51 Send private message

Maverick

Getting the Customer to look at lights etc is a waste of time... all the ISP helpdesk needs to do is confirm the router is functional either by using the customers web browser or drawing Dail tone from the POTs port.

Dealing with item (10)

If both the customer and the ISP can both see the router both the customer still cannot see the internet then the ISP can trigger the APSU ( Alarm Power Supply Unit) which will make a DHCP request and send a message to the customer or ISP thus proving out the entire system outside the customers perhaps flaky computer network adapter.

Like I say.. do not under estimate the importance APSU when it comes to fault analysis

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