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Topic # 76896 8-Feb-2011 10:07 Send private message

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=95&topicid=71548&page_no=2#436667

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/joyce-no-new-regulation-needed-300m-rural-broadband-project-opponents-wail-ck-85332

"Pricing for the wholesale fibre/mobile rural network would be on an equivalence basis, meaning competitors must be offered the same wholesale deal as Telecom and Vodafone's retail operations."

My take on that statement means that pricing will be set based on reversing the retail price linked to their stated retail profits based on the services they choose to provide.

So:  They choose to deliver 5mbits to customers for say $10/month...

They then claim the retail profit is 4%[1] - So wholesale cost is $9.60 per 5mbit link with 50Mbytes of data on it.

I then say I want to push a 100mbit link up the valley, so they factor the fact that my link can carry 4TB of data per 12mbits of link. 

So then reverse all the math between 4TB/12mbit*100mbits (you get where this math is going....)

No.  I want to see a price for putting the AP on the tower per the build costs per the govt funding and the same for a dark fibre.

Per:  http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=95&topicid=71548&page_no=2#436581

I do not want to be subject to having to cost my services on some expensive 1+N kit when I can use a cheap $150 dollar media convert just fine to deliver my service.

I'd also like to see these figures in the public space before the deal is signed off so people can comment on what's on offer.

I tend to agree at present with what FF are saying about a lack of confidence that farmers are going to see anything better being delivered than what the city had 5 years go.

I want to see concrete commitments, designs and pricing.

D














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  Reply # 436729 8-Feb-2011 11:15 Send private message

I'm not advocating any particular position on colo, pricing or anything, but you do realise why carriers tend not to use domestic grade equipment, right?

I mean, I might personally be OK with having to go over and reboot the thingamajig on my wall once a week - actually, my home router is like that, and it p****es me off, so really I'm not - but it's a bit different when it's serving, say, 100 houses simultaneously.




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  Reply # 436741 8-Feb-2011 11:40 Send private message

Really is time to choose a better domestic router if it's crashing once a week.

I've got truck loads of domestic kit that I only ever have to touch when the power goes out to often.

Last week I was on a site with a WDS wireless set up that's been trucking for 4 years on $35 aps.

The capital investment has meant they can afford to give access away to their customers for free.

In turn that translates to a point of difference for them that has resulted in them getting more customers.

Yes. The site manager tells me he has to reboot all the APs from time to time because they seem to get upset when the power goes out. The biggest single problem on the site has been the tech who came to fix the config after the last aftershock down here and stuff up the whole configuration. That's not a domestic router problem, that's just a guy trying to fix something he didn't know how. It doesn't matter if I have HP, Cisco or Edimax on that site, if the tech doesn't know what to do then he'll equally stuff it up.

My M5 solution isn't the answer in a location where it's the only service choice to 100 homes. I agree.

However I'm not talking about it being such a solution. I'm talking about providing a different service along side the existing carriers.

Will it be cheaper? Maybe?

Will it be built on different technology from the Cisco kit the carrier is using? Yes.

Will it have it's on benefits? Yes, of course.

Will it have down sides - sure.

Should the customer have the right to choose? You tell me, do you get to vote and pay tax in New Zealand?

D




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  Reply # 436751 8-Feb-2011 11:52 Send private message

DonGould: Really is time to choose a better domestic router if it's crashing once a week.



Yes, well, I find Belkin kit to be a bit like KFC -- occasionally I allow myself to be seduced by the advertising just to remind myself that it's nausea inducing rubbish and I shouldn't buy it again.

Recently, my long suffering Linksys router/AP finally gave out, and sadly, it was Belkin time of year again. After this piece of crap dies - or annoys* me one too many times and goes for a short flight out the window - it will probably be another Linksys or DLink. I've never had a problem with the DLink stuff.

*And by "annoy" I mean:

1) It has separate broadcast domains for wireless LAN and fixed ethernet, so my iDevices can't see the computers unless the computers are also on WLAN, which they're generally not, since I have wires where I need them and that's much faster for pushing big files around

2) Whenever the internet connection is broken for any reason such as someone kicking out the wall-wart, you have to (and I kid you not) edit the MTU size - doesn't matter what to, we generally toggle between 1410 and 1420 bytes - before anything starts working again. A router reboot won't do it. A client reboot won't do it. Releasing & renewing DHCP leases won't do it. NOTHING except editing the MTU size to ANY OTHER VALUE than what it currently is, will make it start to work again.

//You may now return to your original thread.




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  Reply # 436801 8-Feb-2011 13:07 Send private message

There are a number of factors in play that mean you can't release a cost per "AP"

First off, Tower space is limited which means you're M5 (I assume your talking UBNT gear like the bullet or nanostation's) needs to fit. Someone is going to have to check that there is space on the tower, then an engineer is going to have to design or sign off on the mounting system for it since the tower is gonna be atleast 2 feet wide. If you have ever dealt with Telecom/Vodafone/Kordia then you'll know that this process will set you back atleast $3-4k or more depending on how complex it is and how many modifications to tower are needed

Next you have tower access, You can't just go and whack it up since towers are tall. You'll need to get riggers that are accredited by the tower owner to install it, Once again expect to drop $1-2k depending on how long it takes.

Then you'll have spectrum you want to use, despite being unlicensed band history with anyone owning towers is that you allocate a spectrum chunk to you in order to avoid multiple users complaining about tower interference. You'll need to work with anyone else up the tower to make sure you done interfere, Get used to the idea that you wont always be able to use dual-pol 40mhz channels.

Then once your AP is up you have service charges, You'll need shed space for your PoE's and MC's, Power will be needed and if you option in for Backup Power.

All in all, Too many variables to put out a general figure. But needless to say it's going to make you think twice about putting up a consumer grade M5




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  Reply # 436803 8-Feb-2011 13:09 Send private message

Getting back on topic, which you really haven't strayed for far from if you think about it...

There is a difference between a Belkin wifi ap and an M5 and WaveIP gear.

I do actually agree that a Belkin on the side of a rural tower might be a bit foolish.  You really need the support of being able to take it back to DSE.

However there's a medium point between Belkin and WaveIP or something else more expensive that can be achieved if the access pricing for the govt funded stuff reflects the govt investment.

My current concern is centered around this 'open access' claim.

Over the last 3 years I've seen $3.6m dollars spend on fibre in Christchurch.

While it's claimed that the fibre is open access, the price terms to use it clearly demonstrate other wise.

Last time I checked I was told that it costs $1000 per month to have access to a core before you light it up.  The cores are sitting dark in the street and I'm planning on using DSL or HFC for one project simply because the 'open access' price point pushes the project out the door.

This is after my local council stumping up with $6.3m from rates money and govt stumping up $3.2m tax money as I understand it.

Now I confess I could be very very very wrong about all of this.

It might be that I can now get access to the fibre for $30 a month and light it up with my own media converters and pump 1GB or 100mbit back to the CHIX.

I fully except that if someone has to pay $55,000 to push the fibre the last 350m to my house from where it's lying dark then $30 is a bit unrealistic. 

But what it I dig the hole to the pit, put in the conduit and drop a 6 core SPF tail in there?  Isn't this the whole point of 'open access'?

Really the question is a bit moot because I know I'm dreaming with that one.

I know I'm going to have to learn to program these damb Mikrotik routers sitting on my desk, build a wireless cloud in my area and just vacuum up capacity on DSL and HFC links until I can get enough customers to pay the $1000 a month I was quoted last time I asked.

Am I realistically going to be able to interest people in that idea?  No, not if the price of petrol keeps heading down and giving people more spending money to just spend on their existing broadband accounts.

D




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  Reply # 436813 8-Feb-2011 13:34 Send private message

DonGould:  Now I confess I could be very very very wrong about all of this.


!!! I WAS WRONG !!!

One thing about public forums and discussion is I'm never scared to come back and say I was wrong.  That's the whole point of this stuff in my view.  Other than having to shout the next round of beers at the bar, I never think there should be shame in getting something wrong.

The price of the fibre I was talking about has moved.  It's still not good, but it has moved from the last time I had this discussion with someone, which is good news.

.../wonders back off to playing with ATAs.




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  Reply # 436818 8-Feb-2011 13:53 Send private message

In your mind, what is a fair price to pay per month for 1 strand of fibre running 10-20km?




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  Reply # 436821 8-Feb-2011 13:59 Send private message

Good question Bccara. I actually have to scope that a bit more...

I'll get back to your shortly on that one. Got ppl just turned up.

D




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  Reply # 436853 8-Feb-2011 15:47 Send private message

Beccara: In your mind, what is a fair price to pay per month for 1 strand of fibre running 10-20km?


Ok.... I want to see a cost break down on this to answer the question.

My view is the fibre should go into a holding company just like the LFC where the public investment holds ownership of the fibre put in the ground.

The fibre should be free for use as long as I use it, but I pay my costs for connecting it. 

Think of this in terms of a road.  I don't pay a toll to drive to a rural area.

You guys keep talking about kit as well... let's get back to terms of a road as the comparison actually works quite well in my mind.

The government put the road in if there's a commitment from the public to use it. 

I can then choose my choice of car to use to drive out there.  You high end telco guys will drive BMW's and Mercs because you can afford that and your customers are paying for that.  You need to have those cars as well, their perception of you if you show up in a 84 Toyota jap import will be impacted and you won't be able to command the price.  Same as wearing a suit to work, shorts and a tshirt is all you really need!

My media converter is a Hyundai.  It will get me there, it just won't be as comfortable and if I have to ford a river or am in a head on accident I'm going to have issues.

The govt gets return on the road in a number of ways.  I use petrol - tax, I have to maintain the car, you get the idea, but how does this relate to paying for my fibre?

I know you VF,T,2D guys are all going to truck on with selling your mobile products... that's good!!! GST, income tax, etc.

My objective is to deliver more and more services over the fibre. Give me 1GB core and I'll entice the farmers kids into AppleTV and other VOD products such as FetchTV.

Who cares if my product goes off line in a flood or a wind, the farmer sure as hell doesn't. 

Cached TV on AppleTV doesn't care about bumps in the road.

I can use my M5s without issue for this stuff.

You don't want my M5s on your L2 service.  You then have to deal with more pps, security and a host of issues that make service delivery for you more expensive as well! 

On a core I have isolation from your network and you from mine. 

So, to return to the question...  the 10km run on govt funded fibre should be free to me as long as I actually use it and prove I'm delivering services. 

What I should not be allowed to do is get on the potty just to keep some other kid off it and sit there while he wets his pants - yes I'm the Dad of a 3yr old!

D





 






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  Reply # 436869 8-Feb-2011 16:29 Send private message

It doesn't matter if I drive a BMW and you drive a Civic, We both pay the same fuel tax, WOF fees and Rego charges :)




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  Reply # 436879 8-Feb-2011 16:47 Send private message

Beccara: There are a number of factors in play that mean you can't release a cost per "AP"

First off, Tower space is limited which means you're M5 (I assume your talking UBNT gear like the bullet or nanostation's) needs to fit.


Yes that's exactly the product I'm talking about.  Now for everyone who doesn't know about nanostations...


http://home.bowenvale.co.nz/wp/HouseToHouseConcept2.pdf


Page 2 shows you the size of an M5 compared to a product most farmers understand - a block of butter!

The space required for 3 providers to have M5 sized APs on a tower really is very very small and to suggest otherwise is rubbish!

Beccara:  Someone is going to have to check that there is space on the tower,


Agreed.  This is very like the Whisper cabinet DSLAM question really, but with a few minor differences. 

One condition of access should be use, so, for example, I can't put my AP on the tower then service one customer, refuse to provide a layer 2 service and block someone else from servicing 2 customers who is also offering me a fair Layer 2 service.  How do you choose what's fair?  Easy, $30 disputes tribunal just like the CGA debate we were having last week.  You make your case without a layer in a way that an average JP can understand.

Beccara:  then an engineer is going to have to design or sign off on the mounting system for it since the tower is gonna be atleast 2 feet wide.


No.  The towers should be designed with a set of industry standard mounting solutions on them exactly the same way that the Whisper cabinets have some very standard mountings in them and the M5 has been designed to go on a very standard sort of TV style antenna mounting.  This isn't rocket science that needs $4,000.00 of design work each time I want to whack an M5 on tower. 


Beccara:   If you have ever dealt with Telecom/Vodafone/Kordia then you'll know that this process will set you back atleast $3-4k or more depending on how complex it is and how many modifications to tower are needed


See now that just read to me like 'bugger off competitor' talk.  These are 'open access' towers and should be designed that way from day one.


Beccara:  Next you have tower access, You can't just go and whack it up since towers are tall. You'll need to get riggers that are accredited by the tower owner to install it, Once again expect to drop $1-2k depending on how long it takes.


More 'bugger off competitor' talk.  I've seen mobiles towers...  the logic is to put the mobile kit at the top because it's big, micro waves under that and M5's under those.  If you can't get to it off a standard 40ft ladder then we need to rethink the design again.

Beccara:   Then you'll have spectrum you want to use, despite being unlicensed band history with anyone owning towers is that you allocate a spectrum chunk to you in order to avoid multiple users complaining about tower interference. You'll need to work with anyone else up the tower to make sure you done interfere, Get used to the idea that you wont always be able to use dual-pol 40mhz channels.


Yip, going to agree with you much more on this one.  The unlic space needs to be managed as well as the lic space.  As the first M5 installer on the tower it will be my job to manage the unlic space and that will be done in a public community forum as it's public community space...  GZ will be fine.


Beccara:  Then once your AP is up you have service charges, You'll need shed space for your PoE's and MC's, Power will be needed and if you option in for Backup Power.


Yip, all providers should be allocated a small section of land to put their cabinet and be allowed to resell space to other providers who choose to purchase off them.  Any dispute will be settled by a JP at the disputes tribunal for $30.  No one should be allowed to put up housing that does not reflect service delivery.  Ie just because you have a spare 20" aircon container does not mean you can use it if you only intend on using the amount of space I'm going to need for 1 MC, 1 UPS, 1 RB 750 and 1 PoE injector.  All this crap seems to work well in the city now with mobile kit, why can't it just work just as well in the rural area?   I see no reason why I should have to rent space of T/VF unless they offer me a deal that is cheaper than my putting a small wooden box out there with a tin roof.  This is a rural area, have you seen a wool shed before?! :)

Beccara: All in all, Too many variables to put out a general figure. But needless to say it's going to make you think twice about putting up a consumer grade M5


Na, I'm still good on my M5s thanks.  They'll give me the ability to punch fast wireless up a valley at a low cost and only last as long as the technology is still worth having.  I expect I'll be back in 3 years with the 250mbit version.

As for a general figure...  I agree.  You've broken it down really well.  Let's have figures for all the bit.

D




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  Reply # 436885 8-Feb-2011 16:55 Send private message

Beccara: It doesn't matter if I drive a BMW and you drive a Civic, We both pay the same fuel tax, WOF fees and Rego charges :)


100% agree.  If your BMW uses the same amount of petrol as my Civic then we do pay the same fuel, WOF and Rego... 

However the depreciation on my $5,000 second hand Civic is quite different to your new $75,000 BMW and that's the issue that I'm driving at here.

Also should be noted that the fuel tax, WOF and Rego are different if your co uses a company owned bus to get your people on site.

A mobile phone tower that will service 30 to 100 customers is a bit like a $250,000 dollar bus and an M5 that will service 1 customer is a bit like a second hand $5000 Civic.

I think it's important to remember that neither of us pay for the road.  It just exists and is publicly funded in the rural areas and you are entitled to use 10 Civics to get to customers or 1 bus or 10 BMWs.

The government wins money back based on our choices either way to pay for the road.

D





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  Reply # 436893 8-Feb-2011 17:16 Send private message

Enough with the bad roading analogy :P

If you're going to start saying that client base should matter in tower costs then client base should also factor into your backhauling options

Either way this debate is going nowhere fast, You advocate a free for all where any man with a wifi AP should be given cheap/free access to tower and tower related services where as I personally feel that there should be a barrier to entry low enough so serious small players can play but high enough that some guy with an AP and 2 clients can get in on it.

As others have pointed out the it looks like the charges will be set by the government but there is alot of concern at the moment about what will be set and what wont be. There are many different charges that come together when putting in RF gear and backhauling it. These are not simple numbers to work with and I dont believe they can be put in a publicly digestible format.

All we know for sure is that at the very least when the RBI is done all of us will be on a level playing field in terms of access and price, If the price is costly and the access hard then it's hard for everyone




All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 




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  Reply # 436902 8-Feb-2011 17:38 Send private message

Beccara: You advocate a free for all where any man with a wifi AP should be given cheap/free access to tower and tower related services where as I personally feel that there should be a barrier to entry low enough so serious small players can play but high enough that some guy with an AP and 2 clients can get in on it.


Yes.  I can agree that's not far from our pov's.  I want no barrier to service delivery for anyone in the rural area who wants to step up to the mic and give it a go as long as there are some very very simple guideline/rules to ensure that my M5 doesn't impact on your BMW. 

The simple cost of kit that's needed to deliver any sort of service at all is enough of a barrier to keep the kids and less serious people out of the game. 

M5 - $155 * 2
RB 750G - $145
MCs - $170 * 2
UPS - $300
Basic housings - $300
Power connection - $400
Labour of anyone with skills enough to put it up - $600
Mountings - $30 * 2
Cabling - $300

That's almost $3000 which is more than enough to deter anyone who isn't serious about linking someone that the other end!

Beccara:  All we know for sure is that at the very least when the RBI is done all of us will be on a level playing field in terms of access and price, If the price is costly and the access hard then it's hard for everyone


I'm not interested in a level playing field, I'm not interested in making life hard for everyone, I'm interested in getting 1's and 0's to rural users fast because it's possible to do.

$300m should ensure that 100mbits to every rural home is possible with a very limited (see above) amount of additional investment by anyone who chooses to step up to the mic.

D




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  Reply # 441465 19-Feb-2011 12:21 Send private message

I have been wondering this too - specifically tower costs.
I personally wouldnt bother with fibre backhaul. When you are only serving 10 customers from a tower, a 10mbit microwave backhaul is sufficent to support 10 customers on a 5mbit plan sharing that 10mbit backhaul.

My real worry is about the tower costs and i guess it will still be much cheaper to put up a small 4 metre pole on a nearby hill.

But on leased tower space from the RBI, i would not be surprised if telecom/vodafone have to do radio engineering tests before they let you on a tower - like how verizon do in the USA when you want to lease their tower space. This typically costs thousands.

I would prefer a solution where you leased vertical space - eg. The tower was divided up into 1.5metre tall blocks and you could lease whatever you wanted provided your total wind loading was below a certain limit they advised, and you didnt go any further out from the tower than 75cm or something like that.

Also if they could make metred power avaliable at the base where you could plug in, and run a cable to your own cabinet at the base.

Tower lease should then be made up of the following
 - 1.5m block on the tower itself for something like $500 to $1000 / year
 - Power of 50c per kw or something similar
 - Cabinet footprint block within the towers fenced off area - maybe $200 /year per cabinet block of 1m x 1m

Fibre backhaul is something i really dont care about but per 10km of it, perhaps i would be willing to pay $2000 per year, with typical lengths in HB being something like 30km each

This is the sort of stuff we need to see and be able to comment on because without any reasonable pricing - based on the fact that there really would only be about 10 to 30 servicable customers within range of a cell tower, it would severly limit competitors other than tc/vf entering an area.




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