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  Reply # 437052 8-Feb-2011 22:25 Send private message

freitasm: Well said. It's like people on Twitter, acting like everyone is on Twitter and they are driving the world... A Cyber Utopia.


Twitter and FaceBook are two technologies that have really rocketed into existence though.  I also see Android phones moving at a much faster than typical rate.

Compare it to say HDTV and or Digital TV - there was an article in todays Press about just how far behind Christchurch is on that one.

Don't get me wrong... I actually agree with what you're saying about not getting to ahead in thinking the rest of the world is there when it's just not.

My only point was that the technology now exists for consumers to bring change as quickly as they choose.

10 years ago we needed MTR because there was not technical choice.

At present consumers are demonstrating that they're not overly concerned about MTR issues at all.

D





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  Reply # 437077 8-Feb-2011 23:21 Send private message

It costs 91 cents (91 cents!) per minute to make a call to a NZ number on the cheapest iPhone plan. It costs $2 to make a 60 minute call to an international number. Huh?!

It costs 3 cents/min to call a NZ landline on Skype. It costs 46 cents/min to call a NZ mobile on Skype. What?!

Vodafone prices are artificially and ridiculously high. They've been printing money charging the maximum the market can sustain.

Vodafone are fighting to keep prices high and competition low.





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  Reply # 437100 9-Feb-2011 06:21 Send private message

mike: It costs 91 cents (91 cents!) per minute to make a call to a NZ number on the cheapest iPhone plan. It costs $2 to make a 60 minute call to an international number. Huh?!



It costs 3 cents/min to call a NZ landline on Skype. It costs 46 cents/min to call a NZ mobile on Skype. What?!



Vodafone prices are artificially and ridiculously high. They've been printing money charging the maximum the market can sustain.



Vodafone are fighting to keep prices high and competition low.


And the great thing? You have a choice. If you don't want to pay those prices move to another carrier, there are numerous other options available that offer significantly cheaper pricing.

IMHO anybody willingly paying those prices has no right to complain when other, cheaper options exist in the marketplace.



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  Reply # 437144 9-Feb-2011 09:26 Send private message

sbiddle: IMHO anybody willingly paying those prices has no right to complain when other, cheaper options exist in the marketplace.


I really don't see why you need to be humble in this instance.

I agree.  People who complain about the price but then sit, need to bugger off. 

People who complain 'oh my mobile is expensive' but then won't move because their TV is cheap also can bugger off. They clearly miss the point!

Bundling is great from a providers pov.  I'm not convinced it's ever good from a consumers pov.

One of my current problems is that some providers seem to be basically giving away either a phone or telephone service to their customers with broadband.

That one is a challenge, but not impossible to get past either.

D




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  Reply # 437165 9-Feb-2011 10:34 Send private message

Having come in to this discussion a little late, is the general feeling that lowering MTRs will mean that mobile to mobile calling and landline to mobile calling will become cheaper to the mobile providers? However, these cheaper calling rates while being passed on to consumers in the mobile to mobile space (at a loss of profit to the mobile providers), the savings will not be passed on in the landline to mobile space? And Vodafone is crying foul as Telecom is the incumbent line provider for most of New Zealand?

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  Reply # 437208 9-Feb-2011 12:04 Send private message

Foo: And Vodafone is crying foul as Telecom is the incumbent line provider for most of New Zealand?


Na, I think it's actually far more complex and thought out than that.  It's noise to make it look like VF are unhappy, but in reality everyone is very happy with MTR as it is and it's being used as a vehicle to stop a race to the bottom by anyone provider getting out of hand - eg new entrant 2Deg.

We've seen this in the past in other markets where a provider goes a bit maniac and ends up just causing disruption in the market that gives everyone else a headache.

Often it even leads to the maniac player going out of business while also driving revenue and profit down for everyone.

OneTel was a good example of big business power play in Australia.  At the end of the day it was the small guys who really lost out in that game and disruption for consumers.

MTRs mean that the base price for a call stays higher because providers point to MTR as a reason.  The fact is that call flows from network to network often balance each other out so it's all just a bit moot other than to hold the call price up across every network.

Does that make it any more or less clear?

D




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  Reply # 437217 9-Feb-2011 12:22 Send private message

DonGould:

OneTel was a good example of big business power play in Australia.  At the end of the day it was the small guys who really lost out in that game and disruption for consumers.


OneTel's biggest problem was their rubbish billing system. They basically couldn't get bills out to people, nor accept payments. Business 101 FAIL.


MTRs mean that the base price for a call stays higher because providers point to MTR as a reason.  The fact is that call flows from network to network often balance each other out so it's all just a bit moot other than to hold the call price up across every network.


Calls balancing out isn't the issue. If calls balance out between provider A and provider B that simply means that both A and B pocket the same amount of MTR revenue, which comes from - YOU.

Now, MTRs are not complete bollocks. Mobile networks aren't free. But, an MTR that is substantially higher than cost is the issue here.

Similarly, there are specific sets of traffic models that allow, in some circumstances, it to appear as if a provider is selling services at lower than MTR. And if consumed in a particular way, that's true. However the retail pricing is never set with extreme border cases in mind, but with the 'expected' - normal - usage cases in mind. And in those normal usage patterns, the averaged pricing doesn't work out lower than (averaged) MTR, so it's a little disingenuous to suggest that services are already cheaper than MTR so everything's OK.





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  Reply # 437226 9-Feb-2011 12:35 Send private message

SaltyNZ:
DonGould:

OneTel was a good example of big business power play in Australia.  At the end of the day it was the small guys who really lost out in that game and disruption for consumers.


OneTel's biggest problem was their rubbish billing system. They basically couldn't get bills out to people, nor accept payments. Business 101 FAIL.


MTRs mean that the base price for a call stays higher because providers point to MTR as a reason.  The fact is that call flows from network to network often balance each other out so it's all just a bit moot other than to hold the call price up across every network.


Calls balancing out isn't the issue. If calls balance out between provider A and provider B that simply means that both A and B pocket the same amount of MTR revenue, which comes from - YOU.




You fail to mention that they pay out the same amount of costs too.
If a provider has 1m minutes outgoing and 1m minutes incoming then it nets off completely.  If MTRs suddenly changed from 15c down to 5c it makes precisely zero diference to the carriers revenues and costs.  If it makes zero difference to the revenues and costs, then it is not something that is impacting customers pricing.

the other thing to remember about passthrough is that an MTR change only effects offnet costs

So, if a carrier has 20m minutes at 50cpm, and 20% of those (4m) are offnet at the same price, then passing through an MTR change of 10cpm will only impact the offnet proportion of calls. So if the carrier has to passthrough the total saving at an average price level then it will actualy only have to drop price by 2c to fully passthrough MTR.

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  Reply # 437236 9-Feb-2011 13:03 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:
You fail to mention that they pay out the same amount of costs too.
If a provider has 1m minutes outgoing and 1m minutes incoming then it nets off completely.  If MTRs suddenly changed from 15c down to 5c it makes precisely zero diference to the carriers revenues and costs.  If it makes zero difference to the revenues and costs, then it is not something that is impacting customers pricing.



No, it doesn't make zero difference to revenues.

If A and B both charge each other 15c/min for 1 million minutes each from A->B and B->A, they have each earned $15 million dollars in revenue (which you, Joe Retail, paid). If they both charge 5c/min for 1 million minutes each, then they've earned $5 million in revenue (which you paid for).

They both make the same amount as each other either way, but you - the retail subscriber - paid $10 million less. You're better off; the carriers are likely to be better off too, since experience shows that you use more when it costs less.




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  Reply # 437258 9-Feb-2011 13:29 Send private message

SaltyNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
You fail to mention that they pay out the same amount of costs too.
If a provider has 1m minutes outgoing and 1m minutes incoming then it nets off completely.  If MTRs suddenly changed from 15c down to 5c it makes precisely zero diference to the carriers revenues and costs.  If it makes zero difference to the revenues and costs, then it is not something that is impacting customers pricing.



No, it doesn't make zero difference to revenues.

If A and B both charge each other 15c/min for 1 million minutes each from A->B and B->A, they have each earned $15 million dollars in revenue (which you, Joe Retail, paid). If they both charge 5c/min for 1 million minutes each, then they've earned $5 million in revenue (which you paid for).

They both make the same amount as each other either way, but you - the retail subscriber - paid $10 million less. You're better off; the carriers are likely to be better off too, since experience shows that you use more when it costs less.


I said it makes zero difference to revenues and costs, meaning the net of the two. (sorry not very clear. I tried to edit but could not for some reason)

If the traffic is in balance then the net amounts will also be in balance.  i.e. the revenues would exactly equal the costs.

consider a very extreme example where MTR was $100 per minute, yet traffic was in balance with 1m in and 1m out.  Could the carriers charge 50c/minute for all calls under that scenario?  Yes they could. the key reason being that they don't need to recover the 1m mins x $100 cost in their pricing from the end customer, because they already recover it from the other carrier.

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  Reply # 437259 9-Feb-2011 13:30 Send private message

More can read on this topic here.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/mobile-termination-access-services-std/

Including the issue of off/on net price discrimination.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/assets/Telecommunications/STD/MTAS/Submissions-on-draft-MTAS-STD/Professor-Dr.-Justus-Haucap-On-net-Off-net-report-for-2degrees-submission-on-draft-MTAS-STD-7-February-2011.PDF

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  Reply # 437271 9-Feb-2011 13:56 Send private message

mike: It costs 91 cents (91 cents!) per minute to make a call to a NZ number on the cheapest iPhone plan. It costs $2 to make a 60 minute call to an international number. Huh?!



It costs 3 cents/min to call a NZ landline on Skype. It costs 46 cents/min to call a NZ mobile on Skype. What?!



Vodafone prices are artificially and ridiculously high. They've been printing money charging the maximum the market can sustain.



Vodafone are fighting to keep prices high and competition low.


Yip.  Not a bad summary.  Don't know if it's correct, but that's fairly much how I'm seeing it.





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  Reply # 437273 9-Feb-2011 13:59 Send private message

ajw: More can read on this topic here.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/mobile-termination-access-services-std/

Including the issue of off/on net price discrimination.

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/assets/Telecommunications/STD/MTAS/Submissions-on-draft-MTAS-STD/Professor-Dr.-Justus-Haucap-On-net-Off-net-report-for-2degrees-submission-on-draft-MTAS-STD-7-February-2011.PDF


Holly crap what a load of bs.  How about we just write a 3 page doc on what mobile phone to buy and how to configure it to run SipDroid and then help people set up peered Astrisk boxes?

The whole issue then just goes away.

D




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  Reply # 437278 9-Feb-2011 14:05 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:

consider a very extreme example where MTR was $100 per minute, yet traffic was in balance with 1m in and 1m out.  Could the carriers charge 50c/minute for all calls under that scenario?  Yes they could. the key reason being that they don't need to recover the 1m mins x $100 cost in their pricing from the end customer, because they already recover it from the other carrier.


OK, I see where you're coming from, but it still doesn't work in the real world. When we say traffic is "balanced", we mean to within a few percent. It's never exactly equal.

Suppose A lowers their rate to 49.5c/min, and this results in a 0.5% net imbalance in calls - A's subscribers making more - then B stands the risk of losing $5000 every month. And that would be a real money loss, not just a hypothetical accountant's loss; A really will bill B $5000 more than B will bill A.

Businesses prefer someone else to carry their risks for them. So they won't just agree not to pass on the MTRs to the retail customers. They'll charge them to you, so you make the loss, rather than them. A only makes $5000 more than before when traffic was balanced, but retail customers are shafted.




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  Reply # 437279 9-Feb-2011 14:06 Send private message

DonGould:
The whole issue then just goes away.

D


Except for the vast majority of the population who don't want or can't afford a phone that runs SipDroid.




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