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Topic # 78278 2-Mar-2011 09:31 Send private message

Following on from: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=65&topicid=78012 

I thought it would be great to get some views and discussion going on about VoIP over mobile networks. This is something that for various reasons sits in the "not supported" "prohibited" basket. E.G.
- cuts into mobile calling revenue
- quality of service can't be guaranteed
- technical limitations
- issues with cell site handover

But is it time that mobile networks start supporting VoIP on their networks, even if it's just "best efforts".

The main reason of course is the current Rural Broadband Initiative. Both Telecom and Vodafone are key runners in this, and intend to use cellular as their backbone to provide this.

Although the mobile networks don't seem to specifically prohibit the use of VoIP, there is no guarantee of this remaining so in the future. Also with it currenly "unsupported", what if there are issues using VoIP on their networks; as there is currently using WorldxChange VFX over Telecom XT? How can such issues get addressed?

Any rural broadband initiative should be on an equivalence basis to that provided to the urban people. This I feel should include support of VoIP. 

Your thoughts?




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  Reply # 444694 2-Mar-2011 09:49 Send private message

The issues we see on the XT network I believe will affect all VoIP providers , it is an issue we do not see on the Vodafone network.

Also to note VoIP with the current mobile offerings is not the greatest and I would only recommned this as a last resort access method... latency and jitter (which you can have a lot of in Mobile data offereings) is the natural born enemy of the VoIP call.... As scotty said "aye Captian you canna beat the laws of phyisics" Cool




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  Reply # 444714 2-Mar-2011 11:18 Send private message

What's the issues with XT + VoIP?




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  Reply # 444716 2-Mar-2011 11:21 Send private message

References 1 and 2:


The issue you are experiecing has been discussed on here in the past and is a known XT issue. As Maverick says it's an issue with XT with calls that are answered immediately. Signalling is lost which casues the SIP timer to expire and drop the call.
 


There are various reasons why such things can occur, including packet loss during WCDMA state transitions which seems to be the likely cause of this issue. 

I did some testing last year when this same issue was raised on here and found this to be the likely cause of the issue as the phone moved from idling in 3G to HSDPA mode. If the call is answered after a period of ringing the transition to HSDPA has already typically occured, no packet loss happens, and the call connects succesfully. Make a call that is answered immediately and some UDP packet loss seems to exist during this state transition. No TCP packet loss seems to occur during these transitions as the packets are presumably being resent. 
 




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  Reply # 444717 2-Mar-2011 11:24 Send private message

pffft... 2Talk on 2Deg

Clearly you just need a "2" in the names.

My handset (u8150) isn't the best, bit under powered I think. But Sipdroid works well over 2Deg.

Given the disaster I'm stoked with just how well it's been running. I've had a pile of calls via my mobile now over sip while I'm either out at the shops or the power was off.

D




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  Reply # 444720 2-Mar-2011 11:26 Send private message

As I said the issue dosn't affect Vodafone and we are not aware of any issues on 2Degrees, so if your 2Degrees is roaming via Vodafone then you will not see the issue, try using an XT connection and you will find the problem.




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  Reply # 444721 2-Mar-2011 11:27 Send private message

I've played with Viber & Skype over 2degrees 3G. Both work fine. But the VoIP disclaimer in the Ts & Cs still applies. :-)




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  Reply # 444722 2-Mar-2011 11:28 Send private message

The important bit here is "VoIP SIP". Viber and Skype do not adhere to that standard.





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  Reply # 444724 2-Mar-2011 11:30 Send private message

freitasm: The important bit here is "VoIP SIP". Viber and Skype do not adhere to that standard.



True; although they by necessity both use some sort of signaling, so I would not be surprised to see a similar issue arise if it is related to packet loss during an R99->HSDPA transition.




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  Reply # 444725 2-Mar-2011 11:32 Send private message

Test it and let us know




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  Reply # 444731 2-Mar-2011 11:48 Send private message

maverick: Also to note VoIP with the current mobile offerings is not the greatest and I would only recommned this as a last resort access method... latency and jitter (which you can have a lot of in Mobile data offereings) is the natural born enemy of the VoIP call.... As scotty said "aye Captian you canna beat the laws of phyisics" Cool


Though VoIP is commonly supported over satellite connections, and this has much greater latency than mobile. Latency / jitter will become less of an issue too as the mobile technology advances.

Your concerns are certainly valid against using mobile network for VoIP currently; however on a fixed mobile connection, with good hardware, I'd put it in the 90-95% mark of quality & reliability. As long as customer knows this, then they can make up their mind to use or not. I explain it is running over a mobile network, so just like a cellphone call can suffer the occasional issue, so too will a VoIP call.

I guess the key thing here is protecting the use of VoIP over mobile networks moving forward. And even if it's just supported on a "best effort" basis, it means you have some comeback if there is valid issue affecting VoIP.

In the example of the XT issue; at the moment we can only talk nicely to Telecom and say if you can fixed it, that would be great! But obviously they have no requirement to do so, as "we don't support VoIP on our network".

If it was made a requirement to support VoIP, then they would have to address this issue.  
         




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their ADSL broadband network faster. Why not spend a couple of hundred to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
Geekzone special price: $150* for master splitter install, normally $200+ through your ISP. Auckland and Waikato areas.
*Travel charges may apply. Additional costs may apply for complex installs.
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, RBI Rural Broadband. Also a dealer for WorldxChange.
Need help in Auckland or Waikato? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com

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  Reply # 444736 2-Mar-2011 12:04 Send private message

coffeebaron:  In the example of the XT issue; at the moment we can only talk nicely to Telecom and say if you can fixed it, that would be great! But obviously they have no requirement to do so, as "we don't support VoIP on our network".


I'm happy with the way it is.  It's a great point of difference to help you sell a product/service.

I just tell people use Vodafone or 2Deg because more stuff works "Skype and Voip is an example".

Most people have no idea what 'voip' is, but they understand what Skype is and think it's cool when I show them it running on my mobile.

In my view, those terms in contracts that say 'we don't support blar' really say 'we don't support your modern applications', which is ok. 

There's no legal requirement for these guys to do anything with their product and it's great they're being up front with what their network does and doesn't do.





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  Reply # 444737 2-Mar-2011 12:04 Send private message

The other issue you need to remember is that it's only "cheap" because it's subsidised by voice revenues. If, hypothetically, everyone overnight switched from regular circuit switched voice to VoIP over 3G data, you'd find the 3G data costs would increase to the point where the effective per minute rate for a VoIP call would be more or less what you're paying in per-minute circuit switched rates.

Ditto with DSL. It's no accident that a naked DSL connection isn't $45/mth cheaper than a landline+DSL combination.




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  Reply # 444738 2-Mar-2011 12:06 Send private message

DonGould: I just tell people use Vodafone or 2Deg because more stuff works "Skype and Voip is an example".


And that's the thing... Would you mind opening a new thread and listing exactly what works on each network? You'll be surprised.

 




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  Reply # 444741 2-Mar-2011 12:15 Send private message

freitasm:  And that's the thing... Would you mind opening a new thread and listing exactly what works on each network? You'll be surprised.


Sorry, derailing this one.  Where would you like a thread?





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  Reply # 444743 2-Mar-2011 12:21 Send private message

DonGould:

Sorry, derailing this one.  Where would you like a thread?



Here would seem appropriate. :-)




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