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  Reply # 444752 2-Mar-2011 12:41 Send private message

Another option to add to the mix is perhaps a "premium" APN, which has a certain level of committed bandwidth?
This would be one way to offset some revenue loss.

Though mobile calling is probably here for a long time yet, as one of the big issues for VoIP over 3G is cell-site handover.




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  Reply # 444753 2-Mar-2011 12:55 Send private message

I would be quite concerned if this went thru. Telecom and Vodafone under the RBI should only be supplying a pipe from client to ISP, VoIP isn't supported or not supported as T/V should be blind to whats running




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  Reply # 444756 2-Mar-2011 13:04 Send private message

I don't get that whole 'voice is subbing data' argument.

My voice budget got down to <$2/m. Just wasn't using my mobile to make calls anymore because the calls where just so stupidly expensive.

But my phone was always on, but I got bugger all calls on it as well.

Now I'm on 2Deg with a new handset with a truck load of applications and I'm back spending money on it. My ARPU has gone up 2000%.

Delivering that data gets cheaper every year. Now I've got the ability to actually make some use of it, I'd have thought they'd be focusing on getting me using as much as I can with different applications to grow data use.

With VF I got free video with my "best mates", and you can't tell me that doesn't use any data. But is was a silly application. Didn't work well, phone only had reward facing camera. Was pointless.

Now I've got:

* email
* maps
* navigation
* voip
* Skype
* news -- web, mainly stuff and herald as they have the best mobile sites by far.

And a host of entertainment crap I don't use, twitter, youtube, facebook.

I confess I've even purchased apps from the market. I've not purchased software for half a decade, and now I'm spending again.

D




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  Reply # 444768 2-Mar-2011 13:31 Send private message

DonGould: I don't get that whole 'voice is subbing data' argument.



I don't quite understand what you don't get. There's 1 of you and 4.5 million of everyone else. They're paying for (circuit switched) voice calls, and that money subsidises your data. If everyone switched to data-only, you'd be paying a lot more for it.

That's really all there is to it. :-)

It may not be imminent here, but the writing is on the wall overseas. Networks struggle to cope with the flood of data. You can put in more cells and more backhaul, but eventually you reach the point where the antennas are touching, and the only thing you can do from there is change to a newer, more complicated, but faster/higher capacity technology. That's expensive.

The data prices you're paying now will go up sooner or later, or, equivalently, the data packages will decrease in size for the same price. No ifs or buts.

I'm not saying VoIP is bad; I'm just saying it's not pixie dust, and it doesn't beat Shannon.

Some people might be OK with paying a premium for an APN with QoS to get better VoIP performance... But isn't it just easier to use circuit switched, if you care about QoS? That already works. :-)

OTOH LTE is in the offing at some stage in the next few years. LTE is designed from the ground up to be an IP network, as opposed to being a voice network with data nailed on the side. So much so, that no-one actually has any plans to do voice over LTE at all, to my knowledge. Why? Because 2/3G circuit switched voice works fine.




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  Reply # 444772 2-Mar-2011 13:37 Send private message

The reason naked DSL is not $45 per month is that it is run over a lagacy system designed for analogue phones and the associated infrastructure. Although only broadband is delivered all the infrastructure is there for delivery of the analogue phone service also.

I get my broadband for $50 per month including 10 gb of data and not over DSL.

I don't buy the analogue is subsidising VOIP argument either.

If I chose to I could run my landline completely over my SIP enabled mobile phone. I have 3 gb of data to use each month on my plan which is more than enough to run the sip service... The reason we are not doing it is for convenience of having a cordless sip phone and purchasing a mobile broadband package doesn't stack up yet pricewise.




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  Reply # 444794 2-Mar-2011 14:19 Send private message

This is the argument that we will see more off, as the service layer moves to IP more of the traditional revenue gets erroded i.e toll calls etc being replaced by VoIP which is just using data on the plans you have already brought... Great right , not so for the traditional companies because all of a sudden they want their slice of the pie as their revenues dry up, so how do they do that by looking to charge more for data or wanting to click the ticket on services being delivered.




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  Reply # 444796 2-Mar-2011 14:28 Send private message

I can see some valid points in it, For example if Mobile Network A makes $100mill per year in revenue from Voice/Data and Voice accounts for 60% of network use and Data 40%, Then if the network costs $10mill per year to maintain then 40% of that cost can be covered by Data revenue. If you flip this so Voice is 40% of network use and Data 60% then that cost for Data has to go up

It's not that simple I know but if everyone switched to only using data on their phone then mobile networks would have to change their pricing




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  Reply # 444797 2-Mar-2011 14:28 Send private message

So Maverick in essence we will end up paying the same in end?

More for data and less for phone calls?

A bit of thread drift here.




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  Reply # 444798 2-Mar-2011 14:30 Send private message

maverick: This is the argument that we will see more off, as the service layer moves to IP more of the traditional revenue gets erroded i.e toll calls etc being replaced by VoIP which is just using data on the plans you have already brought... Great right , not so for the traditional companies because all of a sudden they want their slice of the pie as their revenues dry up, so how do they do that by looking to charge more for data or wanting to click the ticket on services being delivered.


/Shrug

That's the economic reality. Someone's got to pay for it.

By analogy; you buy an electric car and congratulate yourself on avoiding petrol taxes. That works great for a while. But eventually there are enough people with electric cars that the petrol tax take drops too low. What happens then? Everything switches to an RUC model, and you're back to paying just like everyone else.





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  Reply # 444799 2-Mar-2011 14:32 Send private message

hairy1:

A bit of thread drift here.


No, not really. "Support" inevitably implies "charge for".




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  Reply # 444804 2-Mar-2011 14:44 Send private message

The real test maybe when Telecom officially separates out Chorus.

Telecom will then be as (theoretically) free as VF and 2deg to allow VOIP over it's mobile network without the need to ensure the Chorus network carried enough voice revenue traffic.

Chorus of course are also then free to change their charging model to a more bandwidth oriented model rather than a service provision one........

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  Reply # 444805 2-Mar-2011 14:45 Send private message

hairy1: So Maverick in essence we will end up paying the same in end?

More for data and less for phone calls?

A bit of thread drift here.



Really hard to tell, for us it's about the service layer we sell services and wholesale access, we see the value in the services not really the access, it's just a pipe if I want a 10Mb connection I want to be able to run whatever services I want down it , not charge for the type of data or get charged a higher data rate if you use a service that the access providors don't like, for others it about the access they have network and want to make thier fair share if this gets erroded because of smarter IP services which bypass the traditional revenue streams then they will want to get creative to do this ,how this will happen I don't know.

How the regulators will view it also is a very big consideration, every time there is a change of government there seems to be a change in focus, regulation can come from anywhere in our industry nowdays and make some pretty big impacts... look at MTR's and Telecoms structual seperation for example these have huge impact on the Telco sector, the amount of regulation that has occured in our industry in the last few years has changed the landscape of the Telco industry, if this becomes an issue and really this is a way off yet anything could happen.    




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  Reply # 447545 11-Mar-2011 13:56 Send private message

SaltyNZ:
DonGould: I don't get that whole 'voice is subbing data' argument.



I don't quite understand what you don't get. There's 1 of you and 4.5 million of everyone else. They're paying for (circuit switched) voice calls, and that money subsidises your data. If everyone switched to data-only, you'd be paying a lot more for it.

That's really all there is to it. :-)

It may not be imminent here, but the writing is on the wall overseas. Networks struggle to cope with the flood of data. You can put in more cells and more backhaul, but eventually you reach the point where the antennas are touching, and the only thing you can do from there is change to a newer, more complicated, but faster/higher capacity technology. That's expensive.

The data prices you're paying now will go up sooner or later, or, equivalently, the data packages will decrease in size for the same price. No ifs or buts.

I'm not saying VoIP is bad; I'm just saying it's not pixie dust, and it doesn't beat Shannon.

Some people might be OK with paying a premium for an APN with QoS to get better VoIP performance... But isn't it just easier to use circuit switched, if you care about QoS? That already works. :-)

OTOH LTE is in the offing at some stage in the next few years. LTE is designed from the ground up to be an IP network, as opposed to being a voice network with data nailed on the side. So much so, that no-one actually has any plans to do voice over LTE at all, to my knowledge. Why? Because 2/3G circuit switched voice works fine.




Verizon successfully completes first VoLTE call on commercial network in the world, plans 2012 availability
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/verizon-successfully-completes-first-volte-call-in-the-world-pl/

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  Reply # 447725 12-Mar-2011 01:25 Send private message

hairy1: So Maverick in essence we will end up paying the same in end?

More for data and less for phone calls?

A bit of thread drift here.


"WE" as a whole end up paying more in the end yes, but not necessarily all individual users since new services will be subsidising the basic connection. The idea is to enable much more so that individual services cost much less. Thats happening where you now pay for data and VoIP instead of just paying for analogue and nothing else. The capability to transfer huge amounts of local data for businesses and home offices, enables the whole virtualisation and multimedia trends. Those businesses that need space in data centres will be part of the shift to a new unbundled business model once enough telecom users move to fibre. How that actually works out might be more difficult to predict.




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  Reply # 448972 16-Mar-2011 17:39 Send private message

One thing that is seldom mentioned in these types of threads is the cost to the network provider of the "Wiretap" act.

Unless there were some major changes to the requirements, anyone who supplies a VoIP service must be able to "tap" it for the different law enforcement agencies. Maverick would most likely be in a position to quantify these compliance costs, but I imagine would not be at liberty to say.

A ballpark figure per subscriber would give an indication whether it would possibly also have an impact on the willingness to "supply" a service like this.

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