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Topic # 79807 22-Mar-2011 19:49 Send private message

The highlighting below is mine, to bring to the fore conversation. Wholesale pricing for an entry-level service will be $39/month, for a fibre circuit. Fibre needs to be converted to a useful format (eg Ethernet), which means a media converter of some sort or multipurpose device.

From NBR today: (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/thirteen-ufb-retail-service-providers-announced-aw-88795):


The Ultra Fast Broadband initiative is heating up as Crown Fibre Holdings announced today thirteen service providers interested in selling the service to customers.

The providers have signed Letters of Intent to retail the UFB services and CFH expects retailers' product offerings and prices to flow through the market in the following weeks, the press release today said.

Crown Fibre deals signed so far include wholesale pricing from $39 a month. Wholesale providers for most of the 33 Crown Fibre regions have yet to be named.

Telecom and TelstraClear are conspicously absent from the list.

 CallPlus (Slingshot)
 FX Networks
 Kordia
 MaxNet
 Orcon
 Rural Link (Hamilton)
 TrustPower Kinect (Tauranga)
 Uber Group (Whangarei)
 Velocity Networks (Hamilton)
 Vodafone
 Woosh
 WorldXChange
 XfNet (Whangarei)





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  Reply # 450940 22-Mar-2011 22:38 Send private message

Isn't that wholesale price quite a bit more expensive than the current price for adsl ports from Chorus/Telecom wholesale which iirc (may be wrong) is around $27ish?

What does the wholesale price include, the service from the home to where?

Given "The vision of Crown Fibre Holdings is to lead the rollout of Ultra-Fast Broadband to 75% of New Zealanders by 2019" how relevant are prices stated 5-8 years early anyway?



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  Reply # 450948 22-Mar-2011 23:03 Send private message

fibre is completely different from copper, that's why its more expensive, im thinking that anyway...?













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  Reply # 450956 22-Mar-2011 23:46 Send private message

Ragnor: Isn't that wholesale price quite a bit more expensive than the current price for adsl ports from Chorus/Telecom wholesale which iirc (may be wrong) is around $27ish?

What does the wholesale price include, the service from the home to where?

Given "The vision of Crown Fibre Holdings is to lead the rollout of Ultra-Fast Broadband to 75% of New Zealanders by 2019" how relevant are prices stated 5-8 years early anyway?




When you factor in you dont need a phone line for it then it's actually cheaper and has a bucket load more CIR provisioned from it. Wholesale price is from Client's house to the ISP NNI.

Overall a UFB connection is going to have alot more CIR than a copper line and the handoff point will be decent enough to remove congestion from the last mile access.

As for the rollout, thats 75% BY 2019, Whangarei already has a decent sized trial network thats being extended as we speak, It wont be 5-8 years before they are done and once the other network builders are picked you can expect to see live networks in high population areas rather quickly.


A note for the topic starter, Most of the UFB builds are going to be PON based which requires the network operator to supply an ONT which spits out raw cat5, If an ISP was doing simple PPPoE and the client only had one computer then you could just plug the computer straight in, no CPE from the ISP needed.
Also TelstraClear is already offering Fibre connections in Whangarei and has been for some time

edit:// If my googling is correct then your right, Telecom charges $27 for DSL with a phone line but $47 for DSL without a phone line and both are only basic UBA




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  Reply # 450989 23-Mar-2011 08:21 Send private message

Overall a UFB connection is going to have alot more CIR than a copper line and the handoff point will be decent enough to remove congestion from the last mile access.


So if we were to pay a roughly $10 premium today we could get similar CIR figures on our current copper connection?

Cyril

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  Reply # 451007 23-Mar-2011 08:59 Send private message

Well that $10 premium is not really there but DSL has CIR of around 40kbit IIRC (someone feel free to correct me) and Fibre currently has a CIR of 2.5mbit, I doubt you'll see that on copper any time soon




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  Reply # 451100 23-Mar-2011 12:42 Send private message

Also TelstraClear is already offering Fibre connections in Whangarei and has been for some time


I suspect Antonios knows that :)

And yes well aware of the CIR of current DSL, but my question is why can we not have (at a premium price naturally) higher CIR products on offer on DSL that exists today. Obviously business grade products do, but I dont believe even those at reasonable prices have contention provision anywhere near 2.5Mb/s

It does not take much time around GZ to realise that peak time contention is a big issue for many ISPs, probably Telecom is one of the few that does not suffer so bad, but why spend money on a new fiber network when the current one which is currently perfectly capable of providing speeds and contentions as offered on fiber is being run with its legs tied.

And sure totally understand that fiber has a near infinite bandwidth expansion compared to current copper techologies.

Cyril

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  Reply # 451102 23-Mar-2011 12:50 Send private message

It all comes down to where is the content your users want to goto. ISky, TVNZ on demand and Google content could viable be zero-rated when the node site's right next to the regional fibre NNI

DSL would have a hard time offering the most basic UFB package of 30/10mbit without VDSL which would require a lot road side gear going in to make sure all the lines are sub 1km loop length. I really dont think the DSL network would handle 2.5mbit CIR for each client. Besides it's only prolonging a slow death. Who knows what speeds we'll need in 8 years time. 8 years ago we were still mainly on 128k or 256k JetStart IIRC.

It's better to deploy it now so when we truly need 100mbit speeds in the home we will have to gear in place to do it




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  Reply # 451235 23-Mar-2011 21:15 Send private message

cyril7:

And yes well aware of the CIR of current DSL, but my question is why can we not have (at a premium price naturally) higher CIR products on offer on DSL that exists today. Obviously business grade products do, but I dont believe even those at reasonable prices have contention provision anywhere near 2.5Mb/s

It does not take much time around GZ to realise that peak time contention is a big issue for many ISPs, probably Telecom is one of the few that does not suffer so bad, but why spend money on a new fiber network when the current one which is currently perfectly capable of providing speeds and contentions as offered on fiber is being run with its legs tied.

And sure totally understand that fiber has a near infinite bandwidth expansion compared to current copper techologies.

Cyril


An excellent question. Most ISPs in the country rely on Telecom Wholesale for their copper connection. Telecom are responding with options around higher CIR (improving from the current 45kbps), but it all comes at a cost to the end user.  Reality is, providing a national service on demand to everyone across the country is pricey.

Part of the drive for LLU was to give the service provider greater control over the experience; then the only throttle becomes the size of backhaul, and the quality of individual copper tail. I don't think I've seen any ISP mention improvements in average bandwidth when using LLU (eg Orcon, CP, Voda). Hope things improved!




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  Reply # 451293 24-Mar-2011 02:20 Send private message

Cabinetisation has made LLU a non factor for many. What % of customers are still served from the exchange vs cabinets?

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  Reply # 452001 26-Mar-2011 11:26 Send private message

The real key is that a nationwide fibre network will be open access and not be operated by the biggest retailer.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 452008 26-Mar-2011 11:58 Send private message

The real key is that a nationwide fibre network will be open access and not be operated by the biggest retailer.


And we should call it The Post Office, or maybe Post and Telegraph sounds more appropriate :)

Cyril

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  Reply # 452023 26-Mar-2011 12:24 Send private message

A nationwide network built by whoever has the best skills and resources with open access engrained in contract/law is the best way forward.

I personally dont care if it's lines companies or Chorus building it if they show they have the skills to do it (TBQH I'm leaning towards Chorus) as long as the contracts dont have huge loopholes that allow Telecom Retail to exploit it




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  Reply # 452030 26-Mar-2011 12:35 Send private message

If that list is correct not having Telecom Retail as a Retailer for it, I can see Telecom dropping the price of it's copper network to a point where most people will choose it over the FTH due to the price difference.

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  Reply # 452063 26-Mar-2011 14:19 Send private message

boby55: If that list is correct not having Telecom Retail as a Retailer for it, I can see Telecom dropping the price of it's copper network to a point where most people will choose it over the FTH due to the price difference.


This is a point many ignored when it was announced before Xmas that VDSL2 will be a non regulated product. Most saw this to mean Telecom would simply rip people off and charge a premium.

Those who are a little smarter realise this offers Telecom Wholsale a non regulated product that can potentially be pitched well below the regulated pricing set by the Commerce Commission for existing ADSL services.

What the Commerce Commission would make of this is another issue entirely..





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  Reply # 452166 26-Mar-2011 19:19 Send private message

sbiddle:
boby55: If that list is correct not having Telecom Retail as a Retailer for it, I can see Telecom dropping the price of it's copper network to a point where most people will choose it over the FTH due to the price difference.


This is a point many ignored when it was announced before Xmas that VDSL2 will be a non regulated product. Most saw this to mean Telecom would simply rip people off and charge a premium.

Those who are a little smarter realise this offers Telecom Wholsale a non regulated product that can potentially be pitched well below the regulated pricing set by the Commerce Commission for existing ADSL services.

What the Commerce Commission would make of this is another issue entirely..



I did'nt appreciate my original post had been edited to make the article shorter and more readable folks... but anyway...

The NZ approach differs from Australia; over there, the government is requiring decommisioning of the Telstra Copper (NOT HFC) network, as customers move. Telstra gets compensated, and the number $11bn has been touted around.

Over here... well, I'm not convinced compensating Telecom is the right approach (although it is interesting the copper assets were conveniently revalued at $917m in 2009 by Govt, some $400m less than Telecom's assessment). But while you're competing against a fully functioning, limited but intact network, selling a prop that requires new fibre connections, powered devices like ONT's and IADs', not to mention shedloads of new wiring.... hmmm....




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