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Topic # 84866 9-Jun-2011 19:37 Send private message

So what about this,

If someone is caught pirating copyrighted material, why are they not slapped with an immediate fine, like a speeding ticket/parking ticket.

$30 for a song
$60 for an album or movie
$150 for a game or television/movie box set etc
and $??? for software (likely a case by case basis)

It's instant, and will quickly mean people start shelling out for content.  

You could take the risk, but the odd chance you get caught, you've got a fine to contend with.

We should also make it the Governments responsibility, with 'Internet ID's' given out just like IRD numbers.  in turn they get half or so of the fine money to pay for the policing of this service.  

I understand that 'Proven until guilty' isn't a great policy, but if we take the idea of a speeding camera, and set it up on the internet, I think people would feel a lot more comfortable paying their fine...

This may seem a little 'big brother', but at the end of the day, do you trust accusations from a regulated Government agency, or accusations from a security firm employed by movie studios...


 

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  Reply # 479474 9-Jun-2011 20:28 Send private message

Because refusing to shell out for content is not the problem for most people, in the same way that speeders doing 111km/hr on the motorway is not the major cause of traffic fatalities.

The only fixable problem is the lack of access to legal content. There will always be hard core pirates who will have TBs of pirated stuff they never even watch, and hard core speeders who will do 170 past your house. Neither gives two s***s about the law, fines or no fines. They just won't pay.




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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.



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  Reply # 479476 9-Jun-2011 20:41 Send private message

SaltyNZ: Because refusing to shell out for content is not the problem for most people, in the same way that speeders doing 111km/hr on the motorway is not the major cause of traffic fatalities.

The only fixable problem is the lack of access to legal content. There will always be hard core pirates who will have TBs of pirated stuff they never even watch, and hard core speeders who will do 170 past your house. Neither gives two s***s about the law, fines or no fines. They just won't pay.



There will always be those guys yes, just like there will always be someone who pulls out a gun and murders people.  That isn't the point, there are many, many places to buy DVD's and music, and at least a couple places to buy digital copies of movies in NZ. 

I believe people have a pretty great habit of paying for things when they are required to by law, be it fines, products or content.

Refusing to shell out for content IS the reason most people pirate content.  It's such a problematic argument, would you pay for a big mac if you were just as easily be able to get a free one with little to no consequence?  Of course not.  



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  Reply # 479480 9-Jun-2011 20:53 Send private message


I believe people have a pretty great habit of paying for things when they are required to by law, be it fines,
products or content.


They are already required to by law


macuser:
SaltyNZ: Because refusing to shell out for content is not the problem for most people, in the same way that speeders doing 111km/hr on the motorway is not the major cause of traffic fatalities.

The only fixable problem is the lack of access to legal content. There will always be hard core pirates who will have TBs of pirated stuff they never even watch, and hard core speeders who will do 170 past your house. Neither gives two s***s about the law, fines or no fines. They just won't pay.



 That isn't the point, there are many, many places to buy DVD's and music, and at least a couple places to buy digital copies of movies in NZ. 




Are you joking?

NZ has the most limited amount of DVD, TV and music i have ever seen.

The very few onlines services we have only offer a tiny fraction of the content available to people in US/UK.

In terms of retailers they also carry a small amount of content compared to other countries.

Plus they make it difficult to import DVDs thanks to region locking.

And lets not even go their with FTA TV - it's a joke.


I would much prefare to spend a few dollars and buy a movie/tv series than watch a average quality version which blows my broadband cap in a mater of days.

But we actually don't have any other options.



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  Reply # 479484 9-Jun-2011 21:00 Send private message

And back to the original topic, Internet ID - are you serious?

I mean the internet is the most anonymous place their is, i don't know how that could possibly work. But even if it somehow it did work how could you confirm who was behind that internet ID. Maybe i'm being a but harsh but that seems like the least thought out idea i have heard.

I agree that your fines are far more sutible to the offence than the current maximum of $15, 000 but instant fines don't work either.

You really would have copyright holders going after every single offender and handing out notices willy nilly if their were instant fines.




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  Reply # 479488 9-Jun-2011 21:04 Send private message

Are you Trolling?

as it is the current legislation is invasive enough, and the problem is, things are very poorly designed / mandated on the web.

so you feel it would be fair if a friend sends you a link to a Youtube video, you go there and download it (yup if you watch it, you've downloaded it)

and find out later that the soundtrack to the homemade video was made without permission so you have downloaded the song and immediately get slapped with a $30 fine?


don't believe the lies in the press about how this is about stopping "pirates" getting away with getting things for free.

its been shown, that when there are accessible, non-prohibitive ways of getting what people want,

and they are as good or better than the illegitimate methods, people are happy to pay their way.

but there is nothing like Netflicks in NZ or any reasonable renting service for movies (no, itunes is no good, especially if you don't run windows or macosx)



I could go on, but I won't




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  Reply # 479489 9-Jun-2011 21:05 Send private message

OMG! I just saw that part about ID's

you must be trolling,

there are so many bad things about that I can't even begin to get into it.
 




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  Reply # 479493 9-Jun-2011 21:23 Send private message

jbard:

I believe people have a pretty great habit of paying for things when they are required to by law, be it fines,
products or content.


They are already required to by law


macuser:
SaltyNZ: Because refusing to shell out for content is not the problem for most people, in the same way that speeders doing 111km/hr on the motorway is not the major cause of traffic fatalities.

The only fixable problem is the lack of access to legal content. There will always be hard core pirates who will have TBs of pirated stuff they never even watch, and hard core speeders who will do 170 past your house. Neither gives two s***s about the law, fines or no fines. They just won't pay.



 That isn't the point, there are many, many places to buy DVD's and music, and at least a couple places to buy digital copies of movies in NZ. 




Are you joking?

NZ has the most limited amount of DVD, TV and music i have ever seen.

The very few onlines services we have only offer a tiny fraction of the content available to people in US/UK.

In terms of retailers they also carry a small amount of content compared to other countries.

Plus they make it difficult to import DVDs thanks to region locking.

And lets not even go their with FTA TV - it's a joke.


I would much prefare to spend a few dollars and buy a movie/tv series than watch a average quality version which blows my broadband cap in a mater of days.

But we actually don't have any other options.





This isn't an argument of 'why can't we have this!  I'm going to steal it if I can't pay money for it'

Let's change the terminology.  Pirating sounds a lot lighter and less harmful than stealing.

Pirating material = stealing material.

I do bet there are people out there with enough disposable income to buy shows and movies if they had the opportunity, but I personally have found 90% of the people I know (students) understand that they are not morally or sufficiently obligated by law to pay for it, thus wont.  At no point do they ever need to weigh up paying for the product, as they know they can get it for free.

If there were fair and proper consequences for stealing digital content, despite people still not feeling morally obligated to pay for the content, they will feel the punishment enough to deter them from doing so.








 

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  Reply # 479494 9-Jun-2011 21:26 Send private message

macuser: at least a couple places to buy digital copies of movies in NZ.?


Tell me where I can buy TV episodes that are airing in the US but are not currently, and may never, air in NZ. Has Prime even started playing Doctor Who yet? Because it's already on midseason break in the UK and the USA.

I have a whole wall full of DVDs. But the only stuff I ever contemplate pirating are TV episodes I've missed, or prefer not to have ignore a bajillion OMGDIDYOUSEEDOCTORWHOLASTNIGHT articles on the Internet for 6 months. I'd pay $5 an episode. But no one will sell it to me.




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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.



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  Reply # 479500 9-Jun-2011 21:38 Send private message

inane: Are you Trolling?

as it is the current legislation is invasive enough, and the problem is, things are very poorly designed / mandated on the web.

so you feel it would be fair if a friend sends you a link to a Youtube video, you go there and download it (yup if you watch it, you've downloaded it)

and find out later that the soundtrack to the homemade video was made without permission so you have downloaded the song and immediately get slapped with a $30 fine?


don't believe the lies in the press about how this is about stopping "pirates" getting away with getting things for free.

its been shown, that when there are accessible, non-prohibitive ways of getting what people want,

and they are as good or better than the illegitimate methods, people are happy to pay their way.

but there is nothing like Netflicks in NZ or any reasonable renting service for movies (no, itunes is no good, especially if you don't run windows or macosx)



I could go on, but I won't


There is a difference between downloading and streaming in method.  A download is stored accessibly on your computer, a stream is cached I believe to hard disk and is nonaccessible to a normal user.

In the case you mentioned of a home video, you're right, that is unfair, but situations like that are regulated by Youtube, and their audio is silenced.  

Internet ID's are there to create liabilities for actions, and to take liability away from those who are regestered at that IP address.   What is wrong with liability for actions?   You could be worried about privacy, but filters won't be there to watch everything you do, just make sure you aren't downloading specific content.  The internet is a public place, no one gets in a fuss about speed cameras?  

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  Reply # 479503 9-Jun-2011 21:41 Send private message

macuser:
jbard:

I believe people have a pretty great habit of paying for things when they are required to by law, be it fines,
products or content.


They are already required to by law


macuser:
SaltyNZ: Because refusing to shell out for content is not the problem for most people, in the same way that speeders doing 111km/hr on the motorway is not the major cause of traffic fatalities.

The only fixable problem is the lack of access to legal content. There will always be hard core pirates who will have TBs of pirated stuff they never even watch, and hard core speeders who will do 170 past your house. Neither gives two s***s about the law, fines or no fines. They just won't pay.



 That isn't the point, there are many, many places to buy DVD's and music, and at least a couple places to buy digital copies of movies in NZ. 




Are you joking?

NZ has the most limited amount of DVD, TV and music i have ever seen.

The very few onlines services we have only offer a tiny fraction of the content available to people in US/UK.

In terms of retailers they also carry a small amount of content compared to other countries.

Plus they make it difficult to import DVDs thanks to region locking.

And lets not even go their with FTA TV - it's a joke.


I would much prefare to spend a few dollars and buy a movie/tv series than watch a average quality version which blows my broadband cap in a mater of days.

But we actually don't have any other options.





This isn't an argument of 'why can't we have this!  I'm going to steal it if I can't pay money for it'

Let's change the terminology.  Pirating sounds a lot lighter and less harmful than stealing.

Pirating material = stealing material.

I do bet there are people out there with enough disposable income to buy shows and movies if they had the opportunity, but I personally have found 90% of the people I know (students) understand that they are not morally or sufficiently obligated by law to pay for it, thus wont.  At no point do they ever need to weigh up paying for the product, as they know they can get it for free.

If there were fair and proper consequences for stealing digital content, despite people still not feeling morally obligated to pay for the content, they will feel the punishment enough to deter them from doing so.

 


Ok well for a start you are taking your sample for a hugely biased group. I actually tend to think most students have a good moral compass and if they are pirating material then they know it is wrong but choose to do it anyway.

I also think students pritate more than others because they know more about ther services on offer:

Basically they can download a song for free illegally or they can download it from itunes/other online service and they get:

 -A far lower quality product
 -The song can only be used with itunes which is far from the best media player about.
 -If you don't have an ipod/iphone then it is a hassle to get the songs onto your device


I can see that in many peoples minds it simply doesn't make sence to buy it legally.

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  Reply # 479504 9-Jun-2011 21:45 Send private message

Pretty sure at this point you are trolling.....


 

There is a difference between downloading and streaming in method.  A download is stored accessibly on your computer, a stream is cached I believe to hard disk and is nonaccessible to a normal user. 


Both methods are considered an offence under this current law though.

 

In the case you mentioned of a home video, you're right, that is unfair, but situations like that are regulated by Youtube, and their audio is silenced. 
 


Youtube only does if the music/video is produced by a major label, plus their are countless other video hosting sites that don't do this.

 

Internet ID's are there to create liabilities for actions, and to take liability away from those who are regestered at that IP address.   What is wrong with liability for actions?   You could be worried about privacy, but filters won't be there to watch everything you do, just make sure you aren't downloading specific content.  The internet is a public place, no one gets in a fuss about speed cameras?  


Can you actually explain to us how you would expect an internet ID system to be implemented?



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  Reply # 479506 9-Jun-2011 21:50 Send private message

 
Ok well for a start you are taking your sample for a hugely biased group. I actually tend to think most students have a good moral compass and if they are pirating material then they know it is wrong but choose to do it anyway.

I also think students pritate more than others because they know more about ther services on offer:

Basically they can download a song for free illegally or they can download it from itunes/other online service and they get:

 -A far lower quality product
 -The song can only be used with itunes which is far from the best media player about.
 -If you don't have an ipod/iphone then it is a hassle to get the songs onto your device


I can see that in many peoples minds it simply doesn't make sence to buy it legally.


 
They have a great moral compass when it comes to physical products, they don't steal a CD, but after the first couple times they pirate an album/movie, they don't bat an eye, even it's in a trash quality. 

Yea, they do pirate more, because they do know how to use a BT client - that doesn't matter, it shouldn't be 'ok'

I pirate everything I need, I will even go at lengths to crack software if it just doesn't mean I have to pay for it,  would I stop doing that if I knew I would be slapped with a fine that is much more than the RRP of the product I just stole?  Yes! The consequences don't make it worth it.

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  Reply # 479511 9-Jun-2011 21:56 Send private message

Well for a start you have your terms all wrong.

Copyright infringement is "infringement", by definition it's not theft/stealing/piracy.... no matter how the media industry try to paint it.

If you steal my car, I no longer have my car.

If you download a copy of Dr Who from the internet you haven't stolen Dr Who they still have it.

You have only infringed on the Copyright owners government granted legal monopoly/exclusive right to profit from the work. It the case of a tv series it's a bit tenuous for example you wouldn't have paid for the show directly but by downloading it you may have contributed to Prime not paying for the rights to show it and so on...

There is quite an important distinction to be made here that many peoples don't understand.

That fact of the matter is with digital content you have an industry trying to impose an obsolete business model on the public via government lobbying.

Digital content is not scarce, there if infinite supply of the goods and almost no cost.  Economics 101 tells you what happens when supply is finite at no marginal cost per uni.

The industry needs to sell non scarce things like convenable, reliability etc etc. 






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  Reply # 479512 9-Jun-2011 22:01 Send private message



Can you actually explain to us how you would expect an internet ID system to be implemented?


 I'm not sure exactly how it would be implemented, maybe an extra login field when connecting to the internet (eg an extra field on the Wifi log on dialog)  and is attached to all data you send.  It just identifies you as the user, anything you do on the internet is signed by you.


Would be great for a few things.


  • ending internet bullying - no longer anonymous 

  • stopping email scammers sending emails in someone else's name

  • more secure money transfer


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  Reply # 479513 9-Jun-2011 22:05 Send private message

Perhaps you should take some history lessons in why that kind of thing would be bad idea.

or read the book 1984.

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