Are my chiropractor’s fees and suggested treatment reasonable?

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duckDecoy

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#2590158 22-Oct-2020 10:52

gehenna:

Chiropractors and osteopaths are witch doctors. Find a good musculoskeletal physiotherapist. If you're in Wellington I can help point you to a couple.

This.

If you have not yet already, you should at minimum have:

- seen an MSK specialist and had an MRI

- had bloods done looking for HLA B27 or rhuematic tracers

Don't consider a treatment provider until an MSK specialist has diagnosed your condition fully, otherwise you could just be throwing money down the drain. If you have had the above then make sure a MSK specialist has looked over the results, not just the GP.

From my experience I spent a long time at the docs getting nowhere, and only once my new MSK physio pushed for a referal to the MSK specialist did I get the diagnosis and it ticked all the boxes of all the symptoms I had that I thought were unrelated (one I wish I had received years earlier so I could have slowed the progress).

I'm not bagging GPs, but i've long ago learnt that you need to be proactive in seeking out proper diagnosis.

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timmmay

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#2590159 22-Oct-2020 10:57

gehenna:

Chiropractors and osteopaths are witch doctors. Find a good musculoskeletal physiotherapist. If you're in Wellington I can help point you to a couple.

I disagree regarding osteopaths - they're nothing like chiropractors. They do massage, manipulation, stretching, and give you exercises to help and good ones have a fantastic knowledge of the musculoskeletal system. They tend to do half hour appointments, not the 2 min appointments the chairos do, and they are busy so they don't want to drag out treatment unnecessarily. They're not for every injury but they are very effective for a lot of stuff, quite a bit of crossover with physios. I see osteos when I have soft tissues injuries, they help a lot in many cases.

One thing they noticed for me a while back was that one leg was very slightly shorter than the other, like 5mm. Sounds like nothing but that makes your hips uneven, your spine compensates, your neck compensates, etc. That one observation and recommendation around footware helped a heck of a lot.

Eva888

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#2590171 22-Oct-2020 11:23

So 8 weeks will cost $1240 total that’s if he doesn’t decide you need added treatments or time which will add extra. I've watched the treatment on You Tube. It’s random probing and twisting which seems to me like the equivalent of a massage with a tool instead of hands and fingers, so much quicker and easier on the chiropractor's hands.

It's difficult to comprehend anyone diagnosing you have scar tissue all over your body without some relevant proof. It’s a very vague diagnosis which would set off alarm bells in my head. Treatment could go on forever searching for the mysterious scar tissue. You are obviously also troubled about it otherwise you wouldn’t be asking.

My first step would be evaluating my lifestyle and what was contributing to the back and neck pain. If it was not from an accident injury it could stem from gaming for hours or sitting for long periods in one position in an inappropriate chair. The neck pain could suggest this. It may also be a bad mattress, a sagging sofa, stooping posture. These won’t be helped by any chiropractor, they need changes to your environment and posture. Weight could also be an issue and the way you pronate when you walk can throw out your spine. If you don’t walk with an even forward stride and are instead walking in a waddle from side to side, that can cause issues. The pain could also be arthritic and possibly alleviated by some well known supplements.

I would insist on an ultrasound or a scan from your doctor or discuss seeing a musculoskeletal specialist. If you aren’t comfortable with your doctor, change to another. Paying for a scan will still be cheaper than all the expensive treatments with no guarantee of results. A scan may show the real problem and help you understand what needs to be the next step. Examining lifestyle choices and furniture before any of the above needs to come first.

We have all been guilty of going to Physio a few times, then not continuing the exercises and advice at home thus saying the physio didn’t work. Unfortunately physio requires weeks of commitment and exercise, it’s not instant. Lots of sun and walking does wonders too.

AaylaSecura

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#2590174 22-Oct-2020 11:31

Eva888: So 8 weeks will cost $1240 total that’s if he doesn’t decide you need added treatments or time which will add extra. I've watched the treatment on You Tube. It’s random probing and twisting which seems to me like the equivalent of a massage with a tool instead of hands and fingers, so much quicker and easier on the chiropractor's hands.

It's difficult to comprehend anyone diagnosing you have scar tissue all over your body without some relevant proof. It’s a very vague diagnosis which would set off alarm bells in my head. Treatment could go on forever searching for the mysterious scar tissue. You are obviously also troubled about it otherwise you wouldn’t be asking.

My first step would be evaluating my lifestyle and what was contributing to the back and neck pain. If it was not from an accident injury it could stem from gaming for hours or sitting for long periods in one position in an inappropriate chair. The neck pain could suggest this. It may also be a bad mattress, a sagging sofa, stooping posture. These won’t be helped by any chiropractor, they need changes to your environment and posture. Weight could also be an issue and the way you pronate when you walk can throw out your spine. If you don’t walk with an even forward stride and are instead walking in a waddle from side to side, that can cause issues. The pain could also be arthritic and possibly alleviated by some well known supplements.

I would insist on an ultrasound or a scan from your doctor or discuss seeing a musculoskeletal specialist. If you aren’t comfortable with your doctor, change to another. Paying for a scan will still be cheaper than all the expensive treatments with no guarantee of results. A scan may show the real problem and help you understand what needs to be the next step. Examining lifestyle choices and furniture before any of the above needs to come first.

We have all been guilty of going to Physio a few times, then not continuing the exercises and advice at home thus saying the physio didn’t work. Unfortunately physio requires weeks of commitment and exercise, it’s not instant. Lots of sun and walking does wonders too.

Thank you for this, I agree with what you’ve said. My gut feeling told me something’s off but I can’t believe all reviews for this place were 5 stars, not a single bad comment.

I have been to an orthopedic physio and she thought I have hypermobile joints which can lead to stiffness and a host of other symptoms (which I also have). But she said it’s not her area and referred me to a rheumatologist (which I’m waiting to see). I have made improvements in my office setup following the physio advice but not much improvement (some reduction in headaches, definitely, but not in stiffness or lower back pain).

gehenna:
Chiropractors and osteopaths are witch doctors. Find a good musculoskeletal physiotherapist. If you're in Wellington I can help point you to a couple.

Yes, please, which ones can you recommend?

sbiddle

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#2590184 22-Oct-2020 11:54

dafman:

AaylaSecura: ... and a pronating left ankle, which has caused hip misalignment.

I have severe pronation and suffer mild hip pain. Several years ago, I visited a podiatrist and had orthotics made to reduce the pronation impact. They worked great for several years, but then I noticed my feet/ankles would get sore after prolonged periods of walking barefoot. My (unofficial) assessment was that my muscles/tendons etc had weakened following extensive use of orthotics. So now I still use the orthotics on some days, but most days I go without and my foot pain has disappeared.

Long story short, if you suffer pronation, there will inevitable impacts as you age. I still have periodic mild hip pain at night and just accept it is what it is. I could continue to throw a truckload of money trying to alleviate it (I spent probably close to $2k way back when on the podiatrist/orthotics) but now I'd rather spend that money on other things I get real value from.

The whole "pronation is bad" belief is not necessarily as well believed as it was even 10 years ago. Even when it comes to the whole shorts shoe business that spent several decades selling people stability shoes, people are now not all sold on the fact there is actually a problem to fix. There is no evidence to suggest $$ spent on orthotics and stability shoes has made any difference at all to injury levels.

Many (but certainly not all) believe that the best thing anybody can do is buy the most comfortable shoes you can buy.

I am somebody who has flat feet and overpronates and while I run in stability shoes because my feet are used to them and still wear the same model running shoes albeit newer styles each year (New Balance 860's) that I've worn for probably the past 12 years. I went through through a few years having a lot of issues which could have possibly stemmed from simply listening to too many people rather than my body - a combination of wearing corrective insoles and stability shoes IMHO is a very stupid thing to do, and yet I had multiple "experts" recommend this to me.

One very important thing however is that you do walk correctly, if you walk like a duck with feet in or out or differently on each leg you could easily be causing problems.

Eva888

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#2590193 22-Oct-2020 12:38

I agree with sbiddle. Wear simple shoes that are comfortable to walk in for hours and that mimic your foot shape rather than ones that are built up or out and have too many bells and whistles. Stick with what feels most natural and has a thick enough sole to give a bit of bounce to take the pressure off when you walk. Plain old canvas shoes are often comfiest for knocking around in. Don’t wear the same shoes all the time, change every few days.

If it’s nerve related it may go away by itself. I had a year of excruciating pain from a pinched nerve with physio and the whole bit. One day I tripped and fell over really hard, my entire body felt jolted. A few days later the pain had completely gone and I was walking normally. I put it down to a trapped nerve that had become free from the fall.

Definitely get scans or xrays or ultrasounds, anything to give whoever is treating you some solid evidence of the problem.

sittingduckz

674 posts

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#2590269 22-Oct-2020 15:32

Agree with Osteopaths. I know a brilliant one if you are in Auckland. He can tell me pretty accurately how I injured myself before I have said anything. The knowledge of all aspects of the human body is quite astounding. Changed my life and no way a placebo!

timmmay:

gehenna:

Chiropractors and osteopaths are witch doctors. Find a good musculoskeletal physiotherapist. If you're in Wellington I can help point you to a couple.

I disagree regarding osteopaths - they're nothing like chiropractors. They do massage, manipulation, stretching, and give you exercises to help and good ones have a fantastic knowledge of the musculoskeletal system. They tend to do half hour appointments, not the 2 min appointments the chairos do, and they are busy so they don't want to drag out treatment unnecessarily. They're not for every injury but they are very effective for a lot of stuff, quite a bit of crossover with physios. I see osteos when I have soft tissues injuries, they help a lot in many cases.

One thing they noticed for me a while back was that one leg was very slightly shorter than the other, like 5mm. Sounds like nothing but that makes your hips uneven, your spine compensates, your neck compensates, etc. That one observation and recommendation around footware helped a heck of a lot.

I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.

dt

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#2590279 22-Oct-2020 15:49

sittingduckz:

I know a brilliant one if you are in Auckland.

mind PM'ing me their details?

Handsomedan

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#2590303 22-Oct-2020 16:14

I've used a Chiropractor off and on for years and have had amazing results.

I get really ticked off when I hear them being compared to witch doctors and snake oil salesmen, as doctors and physios were not helping my back injury and I was very well looked after by my chiro on the recommendation of a colleague.

Long story short - after years on painkillers (strong ones) my bulging disc was sorted in 6 sessions and I now go once every now and again to sort out the back if I twang it. It's pretty rare that I do go these days as she gave me a bunch of exercises and taught me how to look after my back properly.

I've been pain-free (mostly) for over 8 years. I was on painkillers for 3 years before that.

Your Chiropractor doesn't sound at all like mine. Mine didn't charge the earth and also didn't use any weird tools off the internet. A treatment bed, some foam wedges and a bucket-load of manipulation was what I got and it worked. Generally speaking my first appointment was around 30-45 min and subsequent appts were around 15-20 min, with some of that lying on a bed with foam wedges tucked under one of my hips to aid with alignment followed by a vigorous beating.

My Chiro also said I'd need approx 6 weeks, but after 6 sessions (went twice a week) she proclaimed I didn't need her services regularly any more.

I am somewhat concerned by the sound of your practitioner as it really does feel like a cash grab.

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Kiwifruta

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#2590380 22-Oct-2020 19:55

I agree with @Handsomedan not all chiros are equal, just like workers in any other industry, there are good and bad.

I had issues when I was a competitive powerlifter, a sports chiropractor fixed them and a long term issue. I recommended another powerlifter at the gym see the chiropractor for morning pain in his upper leg (or was it hip?) that he’d suffered from for a couple of years. Anyway the lifter came back raving to me about how his pain had gone after one treatment. After that the other powerlifters at gym headed to the same chiropractor.

Anyway, best to get properly diagnosed first, then the correct treatment will become clear.

Best of luck!

Wrongfooting

6 posts

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#2591257 24-Oct-2020 12:56

Chiropracters do not practice science based, evidence based medicine.

Anecdotes are not that helpful either. Someone who gets better after seeing a a Chiropractor or a GP or anybody may have gotten better anyway. There are no robust, double blind trials that show chiropracty to have any actual treatment effect.

Some benefit from a placebo effect, or sometimes a talking cure (they often do a great job just listening to people's problems and that can alleviate the physical manifestations of psychological stress and pain) is fine for a minimal fee but this device sounds like blatant charlatanry. Avoid falling into this trap...

Also reviews are easily faked and all 5 star reviews should trigger a warning bell.

I recommend listening to Skeptics Guide to the Universe (podcast) and visit sciencebasedmedicine.org for more

robjg63

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#2591273 24-Oct-2020 13:58

AaylaSecura:

Thank you for this, I agree with what you’ve said. My gut feeling told me something’s off but I can’t believe all reviews for this place were 5 stars, not a single bad comment.

I have been to an orthopedic physio and she thought I have hypermobile joints which can lead to stiffness and a host of other symptoms (which I also have). But she said it’s not her area and referred me to a rheumatologist (which I’m waiting to see). I have made improvements in my office setup following the physio advice but not much improvement (some reduction in headaches, definitely, but not in stiffness or lower back pain).

You really need to not go too crazy until you have seen the rheumatologist I think. I know a couple of people that have muscular/skeletal auto-immune problems - and they need careful management. If you have something similar you need to be cautious until diagnosed and you may be throwing good coin at something you haven't fully identified yet.

Can understand trying the physio - probably for possible pain relief as much as anything. It probably wont hurt you - but might not be giving you relief either.

I would think your situation makes you a bit desperate to try anything to help - and I totally understand that - but it makes you a bit of a target at the moment.

Really hope you get a diagnosis and can get a plan together to deal with it.

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AaylaSecura

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#2591377 24-Oct-2020 15:55

Thank you all for the advice. I’ve canceled my visits to this chiropractor and will reassess my situation after consulting with more people and calling some osteopaths as well. Hopefully the rheumatologist will also shed some light.

Update: upon closer look, the reviews do look fake! When I open the google profiles of the majority of people that’s their only review on google. No photos on the profile either. Some have posted a review for the same business too when it was called a different name and that’s the only reviews on the profile. Sketchy as, will report them.

Gurezaemon

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#2591398 24-Oct-2020 16:25

AaylaSecura:
Update: upon closer look, the reviews do look fake! When I open the google profiles of the majority of people that’s their only review on google. No photos on the profile either. Some have posted a review for the same business too when it was called a different name and that’s the only reviews on the profile. Sketchy as, will report them.

Good detective work there - I wish more people took a few minutes to do the same.

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of what is ailing you - it is very easy to gravitate towards something that offers immediate but short-term relief, and to keep on going back without addressing the root cause.

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