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92 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2075919 19-Aug-2018 21:04
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The Nexo sounds great....but, the problem with hydrogen fuel cell cars as I understand it, is that a Hydrogen Fuel network needs to be set up (much like petrol stations) which means shipping Hydrogen around the country. Hydrogen is, apparently, a fairly energy-intensive product to make too....and somewhat volatile (but then so are oil products).

 

The ease of Electric cars is that there is already a network supplying most countries nation-wide with power....yes, charging points need to be installed, but that is much easier than setting up a Hydrogen supply network. 

 

Also, in New Zealand, our electricity is largely clean and green....meaning most power produced is fossil-fuel-free.

 

I have read some intelligent thinking that Hydrogen might well be the ideal fuel for large trucks to ship goods around countries....but battery-power might prove better for smaller personal vehicles.

 

The future is an amazing thing to wonder about :-)


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  Reply # 2075957 19-Aug-2018 23:44
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There are a number of reasons why hydrogen could be viable but the major one is that it allows renewable energy to be stored when supply exceeds demand. Electrolysers allow excess electricity to be converted into hydrogen which can then be further processed into ammonia for long term, relatively inert, storage. It also allows countries with large renewable fields to export energy.

 

One of the big challenges with renewables is that the sun shines or wind blows when you don't need the power. Hydrogen/Ammonia is a potential solution for this. It also removes the big objection around charge time / range as the refuel time is similar to an ICE tank.

 

It will be fascinating to see what technology wins, it'll probably be a hybrid solution in the end.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2075975 20-Aug-2018 07:15
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Handle9:

 

There are a number of reasons why hydrogen could be viable but the major one is that it allows renewable energy to be stored when supply exceeds demand. Electrolysers allow excess electricity to be converted into hydrogen which can then be further processed into ammonia for long term, relatively inert, storage. It also allows countries with large renewable fields to export energy.

 

One of the big challenges with renewables is that the sun shines or wind blows when you don't need the power. Hydrogen/Ammonia is a potential solution for this. It also removes the big objection around charge time / range as the refuel time is similar to an ICE tank.

 

It will be fascinating to see what technology wins, it'll probably be a hybrid solution in the end.

 

 

No hybrids please! :-)  Excess weight carting the non working engine around, or the non working batteries. As you say, storage is the problem, too expensive. If it better priced, Solar PV would jump, that helps the grid a little, offers free fuel when the sun aligns with charging opportunities, and it could allow off peak power to drop, to encourage grid usage when power is plentiful, such as lower power bills, charge the battery, charge the car 


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  Reply # 2076031 20-Aug-2018 09:49
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Most of the hydrogen will come from fossil fuels.
Will see drilling for sources which are uneconomic for oil but can crack into hydrogen..

Worst of both worlds I fear

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  Reply # 2076043 20-Aug-2018 10:18
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justin5:

 

The Nexo sounds great....but, the problem with hydrogen fuel cell cars as I understand it, is that a Hydrogen Fuel network needs to be set up (much like petrol stations) which means shipping Hydrogen around the country. Hydrogen is, apparently, a fairly energy-intensive product to make too....and somewhat volatile (but then so are oil products).

 

The ease of Electric cars is that there is already a network supplying most countries nation-wide with power....yes, charging points need to be installed, but that is much easier than setting up a Hydrogen supply network. 

 

Also, in New Zealand, our electricity is largely clean and green....meaning most power produced is fossil-fuel-free.

 

I have read some intelligent thinking that Hydrogen might well be the ideal fuel for large trucks to ship goods around countries....but battery-power might prove better for smaller personal vehicles.

 

The future is an amazing thing to wonder about :-)

 

 

No, you  don't need to haul Hydrogen around the county, you just make it on site, each station can have an electrolyser, feed it with locally sourced solar, or grid sourced renewables and you are fine, you can also run it off a piped gas network (although your green cred goes out the window)

 

Hydrogen's big problem is that its generation efficiencies are horrible, + the cars remain expensive ( a Mirai is 60K USD)

 

Hydrogen is probably 10 years behind the personal EV industry, and I have a feeling that it will never catch up,




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  Reply # 2076230 20-Aug-2018 13:58
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Hyundai Kona 64 kWh EV: Is the battery weight too heavy for the vehicle?

 

In this article by Andrew English, motoring correspondent for the UK Telegraph, he says this about the weight of the Kona 64 kWh EV:

 

"The vehicle dynamics are about dealing with weight," says Ki-Sang Lee Hyundai's vice president of R&D, explaining that is partly why the Kona EV gets the more sophisticated multi-link rear suspension rather than the twist beam of some conventional Kona models. Tipping the scales at nearly 1.7 tonnes, the Kona EV is almost 300kg heavier than the nearest ICE Kona model and it shows. There's a hesitancy about the body's reaction to bumps, a short sharp choppiness to the ride quality and a strong body roll resistance that means the individual wheel movement is transferred across the car; passengers are tossed from side to side even on Norway's flat and well maintained roads.”

 

Do you think this could be true, that passengers “are tossed from side to side” even on flat and well maintained roads? Do you think Andrew might be describing how the Kona behaves at high speeds, rather than being driven in a sensible manner?

 

I must admit that, when I first read that the Kona had a heavy 400 kg 64 kWh battery attached underneath the vehicle, I wondered whether this could affect the overall stability of the vehicle.

 

The article also mentions that:

 

“The steering doesn't help here, being lifeless and over-assisted and if you use all the acceleration at your disposal the electrically-powered system loses all its self centering tendency and becomes even lighter, so that Kona feels out of control and a little bit frightening.”

 

Again, I just wonder whether this would only happen if the vehicle is being driven too fast?


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  Reply # 2076240 20-Aug-2018 14:15
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What happens when you put 4 all blacks in your car boot?




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  Reply # 2076251 20-Aug-2018 14:24
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While I wonder if a review in another paper says something different..

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  Reply # 2076286 20-Aug-2018 15:19
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Batman: What happens when you put 4 all blacks in your car boot?


You would probably get arrested.




Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

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  Reply # 2076288 20-Aug-2018 15:23
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Handle9:

 

There are a number of reasons why hydrogen could be viable but the major one is that it allows renewable energy to be stored when supply exceeds demand. Electrolysers allow excess electricity to be converted into hydrogen which can then be further processed into ammonia for long term, relatively inert, storage. It also allows countries with large renewable fields to export energy.

 

One of the big challenges with renewables is that the sun shines or wind blows when you don't need the power. Hydrogen/Ammonia is a potential solution for this. It also removes the big objection around charge time / range as the refuel time is similar to an ICE tank.

 

It will be fascinating to see what technology wins, it'll probably be a hybrid solution in the end.

 

 

Hydrogen is a fuel that can be produced anywhere there is water and sunshine.  Sunshine is free and in some cases water is a waste product.  It can then be turned into electricity or used directly (cars).  If transport is required it can be transported as ammonia. 





Mike

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  Reply # 2076315 20-Aug-2018 15:38
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I always thought addition sprung weight helped smooth the ride out (for the same given payload), which is one reason Rolls Royce and Bentley aren't shy about making heavy cars. It doesn't mean Hyundai hasn't fitted hard shock absorbers though. I wonder if the new suspension system has less travel in it.

 

Re the steering - electric power steering racks do seem to feel different to traditional manual and hydraulic steering. I've been told purists complained when Porsche started using them. Alignment also makes a big difference to how it centres or pulls to one side. It is possible that the journalist driving before the writer hit a curb/went sideways into the sand trap etc and put the alignment out. After all if there's one thing Jeremy Clarkson taught us its that test cars get driven like they're stolen.

 

At the end of the day this isn't built to be a sports car, so Hyundai won't have gone the extra mile on the handling.


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  Reply # 2076319 20-Aug-2018 15:41
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tripper1000:

 

At the end of the day this isn't built to be a sports car, so Hyundai won't have gone the extra mile on the handling.

 

 

Having test driven a few, I think handling isn't a priority generally for Hyundai. 





Mike



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  Reply # 2076336 20-Aug-2018 15:50
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afe66: While I wonder if a review in another paper says something different..

 

Yes, I agree that it’s best to read several reviews, so here’s some brief extracts from a couple of NZ reviews. This article says this about the weight of the Hyundai 64 kWh Kona:

 

The major influence is weight. The most powerful battery clocks more than 400kg – that’s the equivalent of reasonably-sized four adults – so kerb weight swells to more than 1.6 tonnes.

 

This has massive effect on the driving. The Kona in regular form is a bit of a cheekily playful thing, but that’s not the feedback you’ll take from the EV.

 

It’s no whale, but neither is it particularly deft.

 

But charge and chuck into a corner and you’re asking a huge favour of the 215/55 R17 tyres, which are of course efficiency-boosting low-rolling resistance types. This was on dry roads; even though its traction and stability control systems will do their best, you’d want to be cautious in the wet. At least, with the weight being as low as it could go, the car does feel planted and doesn’t express much body roll. It does ride with decent suppleness. Generally, it also feels like a bigger, heavier car than its dimensions might suggest.

 

 

 

And this article suggests that the Kona is stable because the centre of gravity is low:

 

“The good news is that Kona Electric is also an enjoyable drive. It has that perky off-the-line performance that you only get with an EV, but it's also a capable open-road machine and rides better than the regular Kona over high-speed bumps thanks to all that weight in the chassis.

 

Does it feel heavy? Yes, of course. And the low-rolling-resistance tyres do lose grip and squeal quite readily in tight corners. But Kona Electric is still very composed and it's stable because the centre of gravity is low.”

 

So, I guess these NZ reviews are reasonably positive, but in light of the rather negative comments made by Andrew English, I guess the sensible thing would be to carefully test drive the vehicle yourself before placing your order and decide for yourself?




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  Reply # 2077072 21-Aug-2018 20:13
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frednz:

 

afe66: While I wonder if a review in another paper says something different..

 

So, I guess these NZ reviews are reasonably positive, but in light of the rather negative comments made by Andrew English, I guess the sensible thing would be to carefully test drive the vehicle yourself before placing your order and decide for yourself?

 

 

Here's another recent review, this time from "What Car.com":

 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2018-hyundai-kona-electric-review/

 

This review confirms that it's best to just drive the Kona in a relaxed way because....

 

not only does this maximise range (which seemed to closely match the official claims), but it also stops you from pushing the chassis beyond its comfortable limits – something that’s all too easy to do, due to an awkward combination of soft suspension, low-resistance tyres, a hefty kerb weight and steering that tells you nothing about what the front tyres are up to.

 

This article also says that:

 

But don’t go thinking that the Kona is in any way sporty. With all of that torque going through the front wheels only, it struggles to put its power to the ground, dragging itself left and right across the width of the road. This happens in every one of the driving modes, even the most sedate Eco that effectively limits the acceleration available.

 

However, this "Top Gear" review is more positive and says that:

 

Yes, you can feel the 1.7-ish tonne mass, but the weight is held low and well controlled. There’s a multilink suspension set up that’s a little firm in places, but it feels grown up, and perfectly capable. And although it’s not exactly the last word in precision from a steering point of view, it’s by no means bad, just a tad bland. Don’t forget, you’re not buying this as a sports car, so if you sit back and relax, it’s quite the thing.

 

So, this confirms again that the Kona 64 kWh should not be driven like a sports car and as long as you "sit back and relax, it's quite the thing".


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2077609 22-Aug-2018 18:03
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I agree (as someone who has paid a deposit for a Kona EV) that it shouldn't be driven like a sports car...but then, it isn't a sports car.

 

If someone did want a sports car, a Tesla Model 3 might be better option? (I had a deposit on one for 18 months, by the way, but cancelled it in favour of a Kona EV).

 

 

 

An update, by the way, on my Kona EV buying aspirations (I don't want to drive it like a sports car, by the way)...I had a phone call 2 weeks ago to say I would have a white Kona Electric Elite by the end of the month (a reminder....I was the third person in NZ (or so I believed from the sales guy I dealt with) to put a deposit down to own one 2 months ago - June 14, to be exact).

 

On Monday I got a phone call to apologise saying that, in actual fact, the Konas arriving by the end of this month were not Elite models but lower spec models (still with 64kWh batteries, mind you). I could have a lesser spec Kona, but I still want top spec.

 

I was told I may have to wait until November OR even next year to get an Elite spec Kona Electric.

 

My disappointment is palpable...and gnawing at me...

 

 


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