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  Reply # 2099938 2-Oct-2018 12:30
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MikeAqua:

 

Govt subsidies inflate prices (e.g. insulation subsidies).

 

A subsidy doesn't address lack of supply of EVs, which is a factor external to NZ.

 

Nissan make about 50,000 leafs per year - only some of which are RHD.

 

Tesla couldn't organise a party in a brewery when it comes to production.

 

A Hyudnai would need a 20k - 40k rebate to make the purchase price equate to the ICEV price.

 

 

The UK Nissan plant at Sunderland, alone, can make 50,000 LEAFs / year. 

Supply is expanding...and sales incentives will see more cars sold here. It's no accident that global production of EVs outside China targets markets with emissions standards and related incentives. 





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  Reply # 2099940 2-Oct-2018 12:35
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Talkiet:

 

Brilliant, I can't wait for all the low income earners to subsidise my EV purchase. I can't see how to spin this that doesn't equate to those that can afford an EV (Even a second hand leaf isn't anything like the price of an affordable, reasonably efficient reliable car) getting subsidised by those that have no economic choice but to remain with petrol or diesel engines.

 

But hey, It's green right?

 

Cheers - N

 



 

You're missing the point entirely (addressing climate change). But at least you're not alone in that. 

Q: Who buys new cars?
A: People with money. 

 


Q: How can we motivate people with the money to buy electric cars?
A: We make them cheaper to buy.

Q: Why do we do this?
A: Climate change. We're in a hurry.

Q: Is there a faster way?
A: Sure ...just buy *everyone* an EV!!!

Q: Wouldn't that cost a lot of money?
A: Sure. But we're in a hurry?

Q: But isn't there a cheaper way to get more electric cars on the road?
A: Ok...a cheaper way. Well...you can give incentives to people who were going to buy new cars anyway so they will buy electric cars instead.

Q: But isn't that unfair to poor people?
A: Make up your mind. You've already decided EVs for poor people is too expensive and we really, really do need to hurry up. So it's back to helping people who can afford to buy new cars..... Because that's cheaper.

....because climate change. The *CHEAPEST* way to roll the fleet over to EVs is to help people who can afford to buy cars buy EVs instead of dino-burners. 

Sure....we could do it REALLY fairly and just buy a new EV for anyone who hands in an ICE to be scrapped. 

But people who argue what's fair then move the goal posts and wants what's cheaper. 

Can't have it both ways......so help the people who CAN buy new cars make the best choice from an emissions point of view.  

There are other options: 

1. Ban import / sale of new dino-burners after 2025. 
2. Mix incentives with support for various groups to obtain EVs. Not buying one for everyone....but targeting groups identified as high-users of fossil fuels. 
3. Support a local conversion industry. Why scrap all those ICE cars? Many of then could be converted to EV for not much more than the cost of incentives for a new car. This creates employment....and maybe even an export industry. 

There are many possible options. 

BUT playing the class jealousy card without offering any alternatives is just......not helpful. We had 9 years of that. 





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  Reply # 2099959 2-Oct-2018 12:47
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networkn:

 

frankv:

 

It's kind of interesting, though, that total cost of ownership for a new EV is not much more than for a new ICE, and perhaps less given the direction of fuel prices, and the probably cheaper maintenance. The problem isn't so much the price, as the range, the charging time, etc.

 

 

For me it's both. I drive a fairly new BMW high performance wagon. For me to get the same performance and handling from an EV I'd need to spend at a MINIMUM of 100+K more, plus the range would be signicantly less. There aren't many (any) EV's that compare to my car directly.

 

I believe we are talking 5 years before they have an equivilent car to mine in EV even taking into account a "reasonable" premium.

 

 

You don't seem to make any allowance for climate change. As for performance, almost ANY EV would leave you standing at the lights and by the time it matters you're over the speed limit anyway.....and that's a reason to not address climate change? 

Not making much sense. 

A wagon? I can see that. There aren't many EV wagons yet. Next year. But that will be relevant in the context of incentives in your own case in that time frame. The day isn't far away when you will be able to get something you're happy with. That's a big step forward. Meanwhile, those who do understand how serious climate change is already are moving now...and making the minor compromises required for the good of our kids......and yours, if you have any.  I'm not being silly. This is for real. 





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  Reply # 2099962 2-Oct-2018 12:55
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frednz:

 

You say that people with range needs that aren't met by the network won't buy. But, you can't always determine in advance what your "range needs" are going to be! At present, it's impractical for most people to just own an EV for all their driving needs. So that's why many EV owners also own a petrol vehicle and I think that situation will exist for a long time to come!

 

 

Practical is in the eye of the beholder. 

I only drive an EV. It's a 30kWh Nissan LEAF. 

I've driven from Cape Reinga to Bluff twice....with numerous drives Auckland to Wellington (660km) on the same day....and I drive Auckland to Opotiki (330km) roughly every 10 days. 

It's very practical and extremely cheap. 

Do I have to stop and charge? Yes. On the Opotiki run it's 15 minutes at Waihi and 20 more in Tauranga. Job done. Reverse on the way back.....

I'm zero emissions.....and it costs about $20 to ChargeNet to drive the 660km return trip. It would be less - about $10 all up -  if I took full advantage of the free chargers along the way.....but I don't.

For me, "practical" includes a couple of brief stops for a loo break and later a lunch. I actually prefer it. 

So much of what is "practical" is really just habits. I like to challenge my habits....keeps my mind fresher and more open to opportunities.   

Towing a boat? Fine....if you MUST own a boat and tow it around the place, you need something bigger. I don't need that. Boats are not "practical". ;-) 





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  Reply # 2099967 2-Oct-2018 13:03
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frednz:

 

Yes, I have heard of some EV owners who have successfully managed to use campsites to charge-up where ChargeNet facilities don't yet exist. But as you mention they are slow charge stations and might require an overnight stop.

 

Also, during peek summer months, is it practical to rely on campsites having these facilities available? Perhaps you might need to book ahead to make sure you can get a charging point? In other words, it seems that this facility is mainly for the hardy EV enthusiast and not so much for people who are used to easily finding petrol stations and refuelling in a few minutes to give a range of 700 kms or more!

 

 

It's increasingly rare to have to resort to campsites. One of the last routes where this is a reality is Auckland to New Plymouth in a Nissan LEAF. You do need to book ahead at the Seaview Holiday Park at Awakino. It's $18 for access to loos, showers, kitchen, lounge and TV room....and the beach. It's a lovely spot. I've done it a few times. Generally, I can charge up enough to carry on in about 4 hours (adds 13.5kWh - about 80km - at 3.3kw for 4-ish hours). 

But now it's possible to get to New Plymouth via Wanganui and Hawera if you don't mind a dog leg. There will soon be a charger near Mokau and the issue will go away. The West Coast of the South island is another area where might need a campground......but those days are almost gone. 

But also.....ALL the new EVs are at least 40kWh and most are 60+kWh. Range and charging just isn't going to be an issue in a year or two. It will only be a problem for the people who own the i-Mievs and the LEAFs from prior to 2018. Those days will soon fade.  

I drove a 400km+ Chevy Bolt EV for a couple of weeks in Canada recently. This is our future........range just isn't an issue. 






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  Reply # 2099968 2-Oct-2018 13:04
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frednz:

 

Because most people buy used cars, then perhaps any Government incentives for EVs should also include purchase discounts on both NZ-new and used EVs?

 

For example, the Government could offer a discount of, say, 20% on all EVs purchased, with a maximum discount of, say, $10,000.

 

I realise that buyers of used EVs are already getting the benefit of overseas EV subsidies, but if the Government wants EV sales to take off, then a discount scheme on all EVs might be the way to go?

 

 

I still don't favour subsidies for two reasons: -

 

(1) EV supply to the NZ market is limited. 

 

(2) A subsidy benefits wealthier people.

 

Also I think subsides inflate prices.

 

I think the best thing govt could do with EVs is buy the things and let them work their way into the used market.





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  Reply # 2099975 2-Oct-2018 13:06
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Linuxluver:

 

Towing a boat? Fine....if you MUST own a boat and tow it around the place, you need something bigger. I don't need that. Boats are not "practical". ;-) 

 

 

We need to support boats. They earn RUC but the towing car pays as well. More boats, more RUC that can be subsidised!


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  Reply # 2099978 2-Oct-2018 13:08
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MikeAqua:

 

frednz:

 

Because most people buy used cars, then perhaps any Government incentives for EVs should also include purchase discounts on both NZ-new and used EVs?

 

For example, the Government could offer a discount of, say, 20% on all EVs purchased, with a maximum discount of, say, $10,000.

 

I realise that buyers of used EVs are already getting the benefit of overseas EV subsidies, but if the Government wants EV sales to take off, then a discount scheme on all EVs might be the way to go?

 

 

I still don't favour subsidies for two reasons: -

 

(1) EV supply to the NZ market is limited. 

 

(2) A subsidy benefits wealthier people.

 

Also I think subsides inflate prices.

 

I think the best thing govt could do with EVs is buy the things and let them work their way into the used market.

 



Supply tends to go to the places with incentives. This is starkly obvious from the way Hyundai is allocating their Kona vehicles globally. You want better supply? Provide incentives. 

It's a simple fact that people who buy cars have money to do so......no way around that unless you want to just buy an EV for everyone and give them away. I'm all for it. Couldn't be more fair. But this is where you'll take the "Fair" hat off and put on the "too expensive" hat.  

Neither of which does a thing to address climate change. 





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  Reply # 2099979 2-Oct-2018 13:09
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Linuxluver:

 

....because climate change. The *CHEAPEST* way to roll the fleet over to EVs is to help people who can afford to buy cars buy EVs instead of dino-burners. 

Sure....we could do it REALLY fairly and just buy a new EV for anyone who hands in an ICE to be scrapped. 

But people who argue what's fair then move the goal posts and wants what's cheaper. 

Can't have it both ways......so help the people who CAN buy new cars make the best choice from an emissions point of view.  

There are other options: 

1. Ban import / sale of new dino-burners after 2025. 
2. Mix incentives with support for various groups to obtain EVs. Not buying one for everyone....but targeting groups identified as high-users of fossil fuels. 
3. Support a local conversion industry. Why scrap all those ICE cars? Many of then could be converted to EV for not much more than the cost of incentives for a new car. This creates employment....and maybe even an export industry. 

There are many possible options. 

BUT playing the class jealousy card without offering any alternatives is just......not helpful. We had 9 years of that. 

 

 

The alternative is to require all vehicles to have catalytic converters and DPF's to significantly reduce vehicle emissions (80-90%).  Banging on about EV's that suit a small minority of people and/or transferring wealth from the taxpayer to automakers is not helpful.  

 

It would be cheaper to fund cc's and dpf's from the consolidated fund than to subsidise the middle/upper class to buy EV's.  


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  Reply # 2099982 2-Oct-2018 13:11
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Perhaps pulling a boat wouldn't be such a big deal with an EV?

 

EVs have lots of torque so should be able to pull the boat OK. And with regenerative braking, a fair amount of the energy used in pulling the boat up a hill will be recovered going down the other side.

 

 


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  Reply # 2100014 2-Oct-2018 13:30
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It seems to me that any incentive will need to be proportional to CO2 emission levels, rather than being specifically targeted at EVs.

 

I would argue that it's silly to incentivise someone to choose an Ioniq Electric over an Ioniq Hybrid, yet offer no incentive for someone to choose an Ioniq Hybrid over a gas guzzling large SUV.


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  Reply # 2100054 2-Oct-2018 13:44
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Linuxluver:

 

Q: But isn't that unfair to poor people?
A: Make up your mind. You've already decided EVs for poor people is too expensive and we really, really do need to hurry up. So it's back to helping people who can afford to buy new cars..... Because that's cheaper.

....because climate change. The *CHEAPEST* way to roll the fleet over to EVs is to help people who can afford to buy cars buy EVs instead of dino-burners. 

Sure....we could do it REALLY fairly and just buy a new EV for anyone who hands in an ICE to be scrapped.

 

 

A upside of supporting wealthier people buying EVs is that newer cars (owned by wealthier people) do more annual kms (NZTA Annual Fleet Stats 2016).  NZ-new vehicles also do more kms than imported-used vehicles.  Govt (a rich buyer) could lead the charge by buying them now.

 

Requiring scrapping of ICEVs would mean no-one gets a trade-in so increases the cost of transition to EV.   Better to leave that car onto the used market to displace something older/less efficient at the bottom.

 

A 2025 ban on ICEVs would be redonkulous based on current EV tech.  When the tech is cheaper and better people will naturally flock toward EVs.  Before that day, any govt that instituted a ban would lose the next election and the ban would be then be overturned.

 

 





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  Reply # 2100067 2-Oct-2018 14:01
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MikeAqua:

 

Linuxluver:

 

Q: But isn't that unfair to poor people?
A: Make up your mind. You've already decided EVs for poor people is too expensive and we really, really do need to hurry up. So it's back to helping people who can afford to buy new cars..... Because that's cheaper.

....because climate change. The *CHEAPEST* way to roll the fleet over to EVs is to help people who can afford to buy cars buy EVs instead of dino-burners. 

Sure....we could do it REALLY fairly and just buy a new EV for anyone who hands in an ICE to be scrapped.

 

 

A upside of supporting wealthier people buying EVs is that newer cars (owned by wealthier people) do more annual kms (NZTA Annual Fleet Stats 2016).  NZ-new vehicles also do more kms than imported-used vehicles.  Govt (a rich buyer) could lead the charge by buying them now.

 

Requiring scrapping of ICEVs would mean no-one gets a trade-in so increases the cost of transition to EV.   Better to leave that car onto the used market to displace something older/less efficient at the bottom.

 

A 2025 ban on ICEVs would be redonkulous based on current EV tech.  When the tech is cheaper and better people will naturally flock toward EVs.  Before that day, any govt that instituted a ban would lose the next election and the ban would be then be overturned.

 

 

Hmmm. Perhaps an incentive/trade-in programme needs to be based on what you're trading in as opposed to what you're buying. Swapping a hybrid for a Leaf? Not that much of an improvement. Swapping a dunga 90s Corolla for something fully electric? Better disposal rebate. 


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  Reply # 2100071 2-Oct-2018 14:04
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What about a 20% levy on the sale of ICE vehicles to fund a subsidy on EVs that way funding is not being taken from other areas of Government spending.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  Reply # 2100072 2-Oct-2018 14:04
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frankv:

 

Perhaps pulling a boat wouldn't be such a big deal with an EV?

 

EVs have lots of torque so should be able to pull the boat OK. And with regenerative braking, a fair amount of the energy used in pulling the boat up a hill will be recovered going down the other side.

 

 

Model X has a trailer mode :)

 


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