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Obraik
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  #2264959 26-Jun-2019 12:52
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tdgeek:

 

You're putting forward suggestions for various CC measure in reply to my posts, implies that I do not support that, and that I do not support consumer EV's.

 

My point is quite clear, I support all measures to reduce emissions. If the bulk of emissions was from consumers commuting to work, then I would support measures for that. Consumers commuting does cause emissions, but of the 3.8 million light class vehicles we have, there are many more vehicle demographics that are emitting more CO2 than that. Add in buses, light trains all of which can be electric, they reduce emissions as they take cars off the road. A poster here gave a list of measures that would do more. I can get more used EV's on the road than your subsidy will, hence more consumers driving them

 

Its about spending X$ and reducing more emissions for the dollar. As in lil ol NZ $ are very very limited. You cannot argue that climate change is more important, if we have no $, we have no changes.

 

 

Well yeah, you don't support directly subsidising consumer EVs - how am I wrong about that?

 

I honestly don't see how a self funding subsidy like what Sweden is doing won't work in NZ.  Your argument against that is "NZ isn't as rich as Sweden" but that doesn't really have much play in a self finding subsidy since the purchases of a new or new to NZ ICE vehicles would be adding funds to the subsidy on purchase and could continue to add to the subsidy each year. 


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tdgeek
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  #2264966 26-Jun-2019 13:06
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

You're putting forward suggestions for various CC measure in reply to my posts, implies that I do not support that, and that I do not support consumer EV's.

 

My point is quite clear, I support all measures to reduce emissions. If the bulk of emissions was from consumers commuting to work, then I would support measures for that. Consumers commuting does cause emissions, but of the 3.8 million light class vehicles we have, there are many more vehicle demographics that are emitting more CO2 than that. Add in buses, light trains all of which can be electric, they reduce emissions as they take cars off the road. A poster here gave a list of measures that would do more. I can get more used EV's on the road than your subsidy will, hence more consumers driving them

 

Its about spending X$ and reducing more emissions for the dollar. As in lil ol NZ $ are very very limited. You cannot argue that climate change is more important, if we have no $, we have no changes.

 

 

Well yeah, you don't support directly subsidising consumer EVs - how am I wrong about that?

 

I honestly don't see how a self funding subsidy like what Sweden is doing won't work in NZ.  Your argument against that is "NZ isn't as rich as Sweden" but that doesn't really have much play in a self finding subsidy since the purchases of a new or new to NZ ICE vehicles would be adding funds to the subsidy on purchase and could continue to add to the subsidy each year. 

 

 

1. Does an $80k car now being $70k, make it cheap now so we all can buy one? No.

 

2. It is already getting a subsidy, RUC at 70c per litre equivalent

 

3. EV are cheaper to run, makes an option to buy. We have waiting lists, funny that.

 

4. Taxing an ICE when for many (EV price, range , towing) means they cannot get an EV.

 

 

 

What emissions would your commuter stop each year, and reduce that by 20%. The cost of that is $10000, plus free RUC. Thats too expensive so look elsewhere. You and everybody else will buy your EV anyway, and for those, its a 100% waste of funds, it gets no benefit. Spend that on other CO2 reductions, isnt that what we all want?

 

Why not subsidise business vehicles instead? They do more mileage, so offer far better CO2 reductions per dollar

 

Its just about math, and less CO2


Obraik
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  #2264983 26-Jun-2019 13:44
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tdgeek:

 

1. Does an $80k car now being $70k, make it cheap now so we all can buy one? No.

 

2. It is already getting a subsidy, RUC at 70c per litre equivalent

 

3. EV are cheaper to run, makes an option to buy. We have waiting lists, funny that.

 

4. Taxing an ICE when for many (EV price, range , towing) means they cannot get an EV.

 

 

 

What emissions would your commuter stop each year, and reduce that by 20%. The cost of that is $10000, plus free RUC. Thats too expensive so look elsewhere. You and everybody else will buy your EV anyway, and for those, its a 100% waste of funds, it gets no benefit. Spend that on other CO2 reductions, isnt that what we all want?

 

Why not subsidise business vehicles instead? They do more mileage, so offer far better CO2 reductions per dollar

 

Its just about math, and less CO2

 

 

     

  1. Most people don't need an $80k car.  A Leaf without a subsidy is $60k.  Reduce the cost with a subsidy and then it competes with people buying ICE vehicles that were around the $40k-$50k price
  2. Not paying for petrol is a nice incentive, but that saving is going to take a few years to build up.  A lot of people aren't going to see that as enough to push them to an EV - and it clearly isn't since our uptake of EVs is tiny.  Compare that to countries that have added subsidies where it's getting to around 20%.
  3. Same as 2.
  4. Doesn't matter. If you can't or won't change to an EV then you can help someone else who will.

 

Again I'll repeat in a hope that you're reading this sentence, no one has said that any subsidies would or should exclude businesses.




tdgeek
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  #2265031 26-Jun-2019 14:04
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

1. Does an $80k car now being $70k, make it cheap now so we all can buy one? No.

 

2. It is already getting a subsidy, RUC at 70c per litre equivalent

 

3. EV are cheaper to run, makes an option to buy. We have waiting lists, funny that.

 

4. Taxing an ICE when for many (EV price, range , towing) means they cannot get an EV.

 

 

 

What emissions would your commuter stop each year, and reduce that by 20%. The cost of that is $10000, plus free RUC. Thats too expensive so look elsewhere. You and everybody else will buy your EV anyway, and for those, its a 100% waste of funds, it gets no benefit. Spend that on other CO2 reductions, isnt that what we all want?

 

Why not subsidise business vehicles instead? They do more mileage, so offer far better CO2 reductions per dollar

 

Its just about math, and less CO2

 

 

     

  1. Most people don't need an $80k car.  A Leaf without a subsidy is $60k.  Reduce the cost with a subsidy and then it competes with people buying ICE vehicles that were around the $40k-$50k price
  2. Not paying for petrol is a nice incentive, but that saving is going to take a few years to build up.  A lot of people aren't going to see that as enough to push them to an EV - and it clearly isn't since our uptake of EVs is tiny.  Compare that to countries that have added subsidies where it's getting to around 20%.
  3. Same as 2.
  4. Doesn't matter. If you can't or won't change to an EV then you can help someone else who will.

 

Again I'll repeat in a hope that you're reading this sentence, no one has said that any subsidies would or should exclude businesses.

 

 

Geez a SUV such as a Kona, is not a Leaf. If I wanted a Leaf type car I'd suggest that. Shall I get an electric motorbike as they are only 20K???

 

Sigh. Who said anyone has denied a business subsidy  as you very well know, this is crazy. The issue is using , No, forget it.  


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2265037 26-Jun-2019 14:11
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tdgeek:

 

Geez a SUV such as a Kona, is not a Leaf. If I wanted a Leaf type car I'd suggest that. Shall I get an electric motorbike as they are only 20K???

 

Sigh. Who said anyone has denied a business subsidy  as you very well know, this is crazy. The issue is using , No, forget it.  

 

 

If you read what I wrote, I said "most people" not "you". Most people do not need a SUV and a vehicle the size of a Leaf is more than adequate.

 

The way you are wording it by saying "Why not subsidise business vehicles instead?" you're implying that it was excluded


wellygary
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  #2265048 26-Jun-2019 14:18
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Obraik:

 

     

  1. Not paying for petrol is a nice incentive, but that saving is going to take a few years to build up.  A lot of people aren't going to see that as enough to push them to an EV -

 

 

And that's the rub,

 

The easiest and most efficient subsidy for EVs would be an addition $1/litre EV levy on Petrol,  It would seriously incentivise those traveling higher kms, to move to EVs  - 

 

(You could do it for diesel too if you could find a way to exempt large trucks, which (at the moment) don't really have a large scale EV option)

 

 

 

But its totally not going to happen because of politics.....


tdgeek
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  #2265056 26-Jun-2019 14:25
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Geez a SUV such as a Kona, is not a Leaf. If I wanted a Leaf type car I'd suggest that. Shall I get an electric motorbike as they are only 20K???

 

Sigh. Who said anyone has denied a business subsidy  as you very well know, this is crazy. The issue is using , No, forget it.  

 

 

If you read what I wrote, I said "most people" not "you". Most people do not need a SUV and a vehicle the size of a Leaf is more than adequate.

 

The way you are wording it by saying "Why not subsidise business vehicles instead?" you're implying that it was excluded

 

 

Most people? When most people buy a car, they look at a model that suits. They may look at a Holden V8. If they think its too expensive will they buy a Suzuki Swift? Suggesting that to buy an EV is to get one that does not suit is bizarre its just scrambling for excuses. The ONLY issue that we are discussing is the subsidy for consumer EV's that people will buy anyway and that commute to work thats all . Its not about exclusions its about priority. If your think the daily commute is worth 10k and RUC thats fine, I dont. My solution is where we reduce emissions more and faster. However, your subsidy falls well down the list and in any case everyone here knows fully that a Govt will not throw out money for people to buy cars they will buy anyway, nor fund that by unfairly penalising others. Businesses get more cars and more used EV, they and buses should be the first priority




Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2265077 26-Jun-2019 14:51
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wellygary:

 

Obraik:

 

     

  1. Not paying for petrol is a nice incentive, but that saving is going to take a few years to build up.  A lot of people aren't going to see that as enough to push them to an EV -

 

 

And that's the rub,

 

The easiest and most efficient subsidy for EVs would be an addition $1/litre EV levy on Petrol,  It would seriously incentivise those traveling higher kms, to move to EVs  - 

 

(You could do it for diesel too if you could find a way to exempt large trucks, which (at the moment) don't really have a large scale EV option)

 

 

 

But its totally not going to happen because of politics.....

 

 

I think adding extra tax/levies to petrol is the wrong way to do it because then you really are taking from the poor to give to the rich.  At least by putting a tax/levy on new/new to NZ car purchases you're taking from those making a poor choice.

 

TBH, I don't think heavy trucks should be exempt from any taxes/levies.  Funds generated from their sales should go towards rebuilding our rail network to get heavy trucks off the roads.


Scott3
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  #2265084 26-Jun-2019 14:55
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tdgeek:

Geez a SUV such as a Kona, is not a Leaf. If I wanted a Leaf type car I'd suggest that. Shall I get an electric motorbike as they are only 20K???


Sigh. Who said anyone has denied a business subsidy  as you very well know, this is crazy. The issue is using , No, forget it.  



Fyi, the kona electric a class smaller than the leaf. As such the leaf has a lot more passenger and boot space.

Regarding it being a SUV, it only has 7mm more ground clearance than the leaf. Both are fwd only.

Preimum price for the kona mostly stems from its longer range.

Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2265086 26-Jun-2019 14:58
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tdgeek:

 

Most people? When most people buy a car, they look at a model that suits. They may look at a Holden V8. If they think its too expensive will they buy a Suzuki Swift? Suggesting that to buy an EV is to get one that does not suit is bizarre its just scrambling for excuses. The ONLY issue that we are discussing is the subsidy for consumer EV's that people will buy anyway and that commute to work thats all . Its not about exclusions its about priority. If your think the daily commute is worth 10k and RUC thats fine, I dont. My solution is where we reduce emissions more and faster. However, your subsidy falls well down the list and in any case everyone here knows fully that a Govt will not throw out money for people to buy cars they will buy anyway, nor fund that by unfairly penalising others. Businesses get more cars and more used EV, they and buses should be the first priority

 

 

Want and need are very different things.  You're talking about wants.  Most people that have an SUV or Ute do not need that vehicle type.  

 

Your solution for businesses isn't a bad one and yes, you are 100% right that getting businesses into EVs is going to reduce a lot of carbon emissions.  But there's no reason why private buyers shouldn't and can't also be given subsidies to encourage them to also take up EVs.  We reduce even more emissions by doing both.  It's not unfair to "penalize" people buying new ICE vehicles, it's unfair to us and future generations not to penalize them.


tdgeek
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  #2265089 26-Jun-2019 15:02
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Most people? When most people buy a car, they look at a model that suits. They may look at a Holden V8. If they think its too expensive will they buy a Suzuki Swift? Suggesting that to buy an EV is to get one that does not suit is bizarre its just scrambling for excuses. The ONLY issue that we are discussing is the subsidy for consumer EV's that people will buy anyway and that commute to work thats all . Its not about exclusions its about priority. If your think the daily commute is worth 10k and RUC thats fine, I dont. My solution is where we reduce emissions more and faster. However, your subsidy falls well down the list and in any case everyone here knows fully that a Govt will not throw out money for people to buy cars they will buy anyway, nor fund that by unfairly penalising others. Businesses get more cars and more used EV, they and buses should be the first priority

 

 

Want and need are very different things.  You're talking about wants.  Most people that have an SUV or Ute do not need that vehicle type.  

 

Your solution for businesses isn't a bad one and yes, you are 100% right that getting businesses into EVs is going to reduce a lot of carbon emissions.  But there's no reason why private buyers shouldn't and can't also be given subsidies to encourage them to also take up EVs.  We reduce even more emissions by doing both.  It's not unfair to "penalize" people buying new ICE vehicles, it's unfair to us and future generations not to penalize them.

 

 

So you will get a leaf instead of a Tesla 3? Want and need. you dont need a Tesla 3

 

You cant justfy this by now telling people what a they should buy. So they can afford a new ICE bit not a new EV so you penalise them, they are not making a poor choice. Maybe tell them to wait till a 2 door shopping trolley EV turns up?


tdgeek
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  #2265093 26-Jun-2019 15:04
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Scott3:
tdgeek:

 

Geez a SUV such as a Kona, is not a Leaf. If I wanted a Leaf type car I'd suggest that. Shall I get an electric motorbike as they are only 20K???

 

 

 

Sigh. Who said anyone has denied a business subsidy  as you very well know, this is crazy. The issue is using , No, forget it.  

 



Fyi, the kona electric a class smaller than the leaf. As such the leaf has a lot more passenger and boot space.

Regarding it being a SUV, it only has 7mm more ground clearance than the leaf. Both are fwd only.

Preimum price for the kona mostly stems from its longer range.

 

Just an example, as I'm told I cant get a Kona, cos I don't need one. My god, this is ridiculous. 


Obraik
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  #2265109 26-Jun-2019 15:55
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tdgeek:

 

So you will get a leaf instead of a Tesla 3? Want and need. you dont need a Tesla 3

 

You cant justfy this by now telling people what a they should buy. So they can afford a new ICE bit not a new EV so you penalise them, they are not making a poor choice. Maybe tell them to wait till a 2 door shopping trolley EV turns up?

 

 

A Model 3 isn't an SUV nor a Ute.  Anyway, I'm not dictating to anyone what they should buy. I was just stating a fact that most people who have an SUV or ute don't actually need that type of vehicle.

 

If we're serious about making changes to climate change then yes, adding a new carbon emitting vehicle to the fleet should have its consequences.  


tdgeek
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  #2265178 26-Jun-2019 17:04
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Obraik:

tdgeek:


So you will get a leaf instead of a Tesla 3? Want and need. you dont need a Tesla 3


You cant justfy this by now telling people what a they should buy. So they can afford a new ICE bit not a new EV so you penalise them, they are not making a poor choice. Maybe tell them to wait till a 2 door shopping trolley EV turns up?



A Model 3 isn't an SUV nor a Ute.  Anyway, I'm not dictating to anyone what they should buy. I was just stating a fact that most people who have an SUV or ute don't actually need that type of vehicle.


If we're serious about making changes to climate change then yes, adding a new carbon emitting vehicle to the fleet should have its consequences.  



Get a grip I didn’t say a Tesla 3 is Ute. You are getting d I’m telling your u to get a Leaf as you told me. You don’t need a Tesla 3 you WANT it. Wants and needs your words

Obraik
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  #2265179 26-Jun-2019 17:06
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tdgeek:

Get a grip I didn’t say a Tesla 3 is Ute. You are getting d I’m telling your u to get a Leaf as you told me. You don’t need a Tesla 3 you WANT it. Wants and needs your words

 

lol, I absolutely never told you to get a Leaf.


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