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tdgeek
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  #2272574 9-Jul-2019 18:35
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Obraik: 5% is less than 10%, FYI.

You’re welcome to go to Transpowers website and calculate the same 5% number from the capacity figures if you wish.

 

Thanks, I did finish most of school. When a website states its less than 10% they generally mean circa 9%. 


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frednz

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  #2272593 9-Jul-2019 19:27
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Well, it took a long time, but at least the Government has made a start to penalising buyers of petrol guzzling vehicles and rewarding EV buyers.

 

But, if you are really concerned for the environment, you'd have to be a bit surprised that relatively small penalties are being placed on some new petrol vehicle buyers (up to $3,000 additional cost). Therefore, petrol vehicles are going to be around in NZ for a very long time to come. It's amazing that even some small "fuel efficient" new petrol cars, such as the Suzuki Swift, will qualify for a discount, I'm sure nobody saw that coming!

 

And, although plug-in hybrids can travel up to about 50 or 60km using their electric motors, to give them a discount of up to $6,800 is not really encouraging people to buy "pure electric" BEVs, which is what we should be aiming for. If you're travelling, say 300km in a day in a plug-in hybrid, let's face it, most of this would be on petrol, so I don't think plug-in hybrid owners should be favoured to that extent.

 

The overall immediate effect of the proposals is to discourage people from buying new EVs for many months until the new legislation takes effect and to encourage people to buy petrol vehicles before the price goes up in 2021. Although it's good that there is a lot of thought and consultation going in to these proposals, I think they needed to kick in this year, not in 2021. And for people who've already paid a lot to buy an EV, their vehicles have just gone down in value by several thousand dollars, even though the discounts won't arrive until 2021.

 

 




frednz

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  #2272597 9-Jul-2019 19:45
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It's interesting that vehicles with a retail price of $80,000 or more would not be eligible for discounts. It's stated that "this cut off is to prevent the scheme transferring wealth to New Zealanders who are able to buy vehicles that cost $80,000 or more".

 

So, if you buy a new EV for $78,000, such as the non-elite 64 kWh Hyundai Kona, you get an $8,000 discount, but if you buy the Elite Kona for $84,000, you get no discount.

 

So, in this example, the non-elite Kona will have its cost reduced to $70,000, but the elite Kona will stay at $84,000. Therefore, instead of costing just $6,000 more than the non-elite Kona, the elite model would cost $14,000 more!

 

But, you have to admit that both of these vehicles are contributing equally to our emissions targets, so to make an arbitrary cut-off point of $80,000 makes no sense to me!

 

So, what will happen, will Hyundai reduce the price of the elite model to $79,999 so that it qualifies for the $8,000 discount?

 

Or, could some of the extras, such as leather heated seats be added in after purchase for an additional payment, of say, $4,000 so that the vehicle can be sold for $79,999 and qualify for the discount?

 

So, why not just abolish the idea of a retail price maximum for discount purposes, and accept that, whether a new EV costs $60,000 or $160,000, both are helping to meet our emissions targets and both vehicles will eventually flow through to the second-hand markets?


tdgeek
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  #2272598 9-Jul-2019 19:46
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frednz:

 

Well, it took a long time, but at least the Government has made a start to penalising buyers of petrol guzzling vehicles and rewarding EV buyers.

 

But, if you are really concerned for the environment, you'd have to be a bit surprised that relatively small penalties are being placed on some new petrol vehicle buyers (up to $3,000 additional cost). Therefore, petrol vehicles are going to be around in NZ for a very long time to come. It's amazing that even some small "fuel efficient" new petrol cars, such as the Suzuki Swift, will qualify for a discount, I'm sure nobody saw that coming!

 

And, although plug-in hybrids can travel up to about 50 or 60km using their electric motors, to give them a discount of up to $6,800 is not really encouraging people to buy "pure electric" BEVs, which is what we should be aiming for. If you're travelling, say 300km in a day in a plug-in hybrid, let's face it, most of this would be on petrol, so I don't think plug-in hybrid owners should be favoured to that extent.

 

The overall immediate effect of the proposals is to discourage people from buying new EVs for many months until the new legislation takes effect and to encourage people to buy petrol vehicles before the price goes up in 2021. Although it's good that there is a lot of thought and consultation going in to these proposals, I think they needed to kick in this year, not in 2021. And for people who've already paid a lot to buy an EV, their vehicles have just gone down in value by several thousand dollars, even though the discounts won't arrive until 2021.

 

 

 

 

Note that this announcement is not the NZ EV Scheme. Its the NZ Emissions Reduction Scheme. Now, I agree with everything you say, but there is a flaw. Every Kiwi cannot go shopping tomorrow and replace their ICE with an EV. In fact a minuscule percentage can. By 2021 there looks to be many models, and one would hope some supply. Right now there are few models and little supply. Of the 15000 EV's we have now, how many are NZ new? Not many. If any? Cart before the horse. When NZ has a plentiful supply of EV's and models, then we can talk penalties. 

 

If we could ban all ICE next week, then we could do that. Like it or not, ICE will be around for a long time as there are no EV's to replace them

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2272601 9-Jul-2019 19:51
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frednz:

 

It's interesting that vehicles with a retail price of $80,000 or more would not be eligible for discounts. It's stated that "this cut off is to prevent the scheme transferring wealth to New Zealanders who are able to buy vehicles that cost $80,000 or more".

 

So, if you buy a new EV for $78,000, such as the non-elite 64 kWh Hyundai Kona, you get an $8,000 discount, but if you buy the Elite Kona for $84,000, you get no discount.

 

So, in this example, the non-elite Kona will have its cost reduced to $70,000, but the elite Kona will stay at $84,000. Therefore, instead of costing just $6,000 more than the non-elite Kona, the elite model would cost $14,000 more!

 

But, you have to admit that both of these vehicles are contributing equally to climate change, so to make an arbitrary cut-off point of $80,000 makes no sense to me!

 

So, what will happen, will Hyundai reduce the price of the elite model to $79,999 so that it qualifies for the $8,000 discount?

 

Or, could some of the extras, such as leather heated seats be added in after purchase for an additional payment, of say, $4,000 so that the vehicle can be sold for $79,999 and qualify for the discount?

 

So, why not just abolish the idea of a retail price maximum for discount purposes, and accept that, whether a new EV costs $60,000 or $160,000, both are helping to meet our emissions targets and both vehicles will eventually flow through to the second-hand markets?

 

 

Yes, that 80k instant cut off is wrong. Make it a sliding scale. As to the $60,000 or $160,000, the latter, doesn't need incentivising. If you did, then as these discounts are only to be funded by ICE taxes, when ICE taxes dry up, so do the discounts. Id rather feed an make a choice, then those that will anyway. If you give 8k to a $160,000 buyer its a free gift.If you give it to a buyer of a lower end EV that might cause a sale that wont happen otherwise. 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2272602 9-Jul-2019 19:52
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I imagine Hyundai as your example, will game it




PhantomNVD
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  #2272608 9-Jul-2019 20:03
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tdgeek:

I imagine Hyundai as your example, will game it



Which would be a perfect outcome for both the buyer and the government... esp as that model seems way too much compared to its international price 🤔

Obraik
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  #2272643 9-Jul-2019 21:03
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frednz:

 

It's interesting that vehicles with a retail price of $80,000 or more would not be eligible for discounts. It's stated that "this cut off is to prevent the scheme transferring wealth to New Zealanders who are able to buy vehicles that cost $80,000 or more".

 

So, if you buy a new EV for $78,000, such as the non-elite 64 kWh Hyundai Kona, you get an $8,000 discount, but if you buy the Elite Kona for $84,000, you get no discount.

 

So, in this example, the non-elite Kona will have its cost reduced to $70,000, but the elite Kona will stay at $84,000. Therefore, instead of costing just $6,000 more than the non-elite Kona, the elite model would cost $14,000 more!

 

But, you have to admit that both of these vehicles are contributing equally to our emissions targets, so to make an arbitrary cut-off point of $80,000 makes no sense to me!

 

So, what will happen, will Hyundai reduce the price of the elite model to $79,999 so that it qualifies for the $8,000 discount?

 

Or, could some of the extras, such as leather heated seats be added in after purchase for an additional payment, of say, $4,000 so that the vehicle can be sold for $79,999 and qualify for the discount?

 

So, why not just abolish the idea of a retail price maximum for discount purposes, and accept that, whether a new EV costs $60,000 or $160,000, both are helping to meet our emissions targets and both vehicles will eventually flow through to the second-hand markets?

 

 

@frednz make sure you voice those concerns to the government as they are taking submissions.  The contact details (and a survey) can be found here


wellygary
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  #2272648 9-Jul-2019 21:25
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frednz:

 

So, why not just abolish the idea of a retail price maximum for discount purposes, and accept that, whether a new EV costs $60,000 or $160,000, both are helping to meet our emissions targets and both vehicles will eventually flow through to the second-hand markets?

 

 

Because when you look at the list of policies that they rejected, its clear that this is the only one that is politically acceptable..

 

The fact that they are allowing LEV ICEs some forms of subsidy, shows they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink to stop it being labelled as a subsidy for wealth urban EV drivers,  

 

Letting super expensive EVs into the scheme just paints a huge "kick me" target  for opposition groups....-

 

The reality is that if you are looking to spend 180K on an EV , the lack of an 8K subsidy it probably not going to make you decide against it...


Scott3
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  #2272713 9-Jul-2019 23:54
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I'm not a big fan of the $80k cap (even though I don't think I will ever buy a vehicle that expensive).

Firstly because I see the benefit of swinging somebody from a range rover v8 to a tesla model X P100D as greater than a benefit of swinging somebody from a kia sportage to to a Kia Nero EV.

Secondly because a big criticism of EV's in the lack of feasible replacement's for a hilux ute / ranger ute / Prado SUV. Generally in terms of combination of towing capacity, and off road capability, and reasonable range. Given a mid spec Hilux dual cab 4x4 auto runs at $52k, and an electric drive-train (with decent range) will add at least $30k (prob $40k+) to this cost, it means that an electric hilux equivalent would be priced out of the rebate range. Also note that buyers should be willing to spend a lot more for an electric vehicle. Over a 300,000km life (many vehicle's in this class run for well more than that), at 10L/100km, and $1.5/L diesel, that $45k of diesel not burnt that would be replace by $10-15k of electricity.

I want to see a decent range of all sorts of electric vehicle on our roads, not just masses of electric hatchbacks.
 

PhantomNVD:
tdgeek:

 

I imagine Hyundai as your example, will game it

 



Which would be a perfect outcome for both the buyer and the government... esp as that model seems way too much compared to its international price 🤔

 

 

 

Depends if they just accept a reduced margin in order to stay under the threshold, or strip equipment (i.e. no leather heated seats anymore on top spec).

Alternatively they could software lock all sorts of things sell the car as a "feature stripped" variant for under the threshold, and offer an "upgrade" after purchase time. I.e. software limit motor power, and range to 1/4 normal, disabled rear window and sunroof opening, disabled air conditioning etc.

 


Tesla is known for gaming such limits. In Canada in order to gain the CAD5,000 rebate, the base MSRP must be under CAD45,000, and the total price with options must come to less than CAD55,000. Previously the cheapest model 3 was CAD47,000 so that car wouldn't qualify. Tesla created a "standard range" model of the model 3 for CAD44,999 with the range limited by software to only 93 miles (normally the model 3 has 220 - 325 miles or range depending on variant). This car was available by phone, or in store, but not online. However it's existence meant a key specification level picks up the full rebate.


happyfunball
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  #2272738 10-Jul-2019 07:43
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We need to get emissions testing in place so that older cars are rolled off the road sooner. This makes the fleet safer and more efficient, saving us money in the long run and giving mechanics jobs which will largely disappear with more EVs on the road.

frednz

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  #2274158 10-Jul-2019 16:33
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https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394036/national-critical-of-government-s-clean-vehicle-incentive-plan

 

Short extract:

 

Ms Bennett said National was not against incentives for electric vehicles.

 

"We see the benefits in cleaner emissions from vehicles.

 

"Electric vehicles and other vehicles with low emissions are a great thing.

 

"It's the penalising of those who don't have alternatives that I think is really unfair.

 

"Its another tax, another cost on those small businesses, the tradies the farmers, those that are doing the hard grind out there."

 

It's worth reading the full article, which also mentions that:

 

Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association chief executive David Vinsen yesterday

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393967/clean-car-discount-supply-standard-ignores-consultations-imported-motor-vehicle-association

 

said the minister's proposal was a "draconian" way of reducing emissions] A simple pricing signal to the buying public would be most effective, he said.


tdgeek
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  #2274200 10-Jul-2019 17:54
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happyfunball: We need to get emissions testing in place so that older cars are rolled off the road sooner. This makes the fleet safer and more efficient, saving us money in the long run and giving mechanics jobs which will largely disappear with more EVs on the road.

 

Good idea. But need to be mindful of those at the lower end. How do we get low income people into newer cars?


tdgeek
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  #2274204 10-Jul-2019 17:58
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frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394036/national-critical-of-government-s-clean-vehicle-incentive-plan

 

Short extract:

 

Ms Bennett said National was not against incentives for electric vehicles.

 

"We see the benefits in cleaner emissions from vehicles.

 

"Electric vehicles and other vehicles with low emissions are a great thing.

 

"It's the penalising of those who don't have alternatives that I think is really unfair.

 

"Its another tax, another cost on those small businesses, the tradies the farmers, those that are doing the hard grind out there."

 

It's worth reading the full article, which also mentions that:

 

Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association chief executive David Vinsen yesterday

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393967/clean-car-discount-supply-standard-ignores-consultations-imported-motor-vehicle-association

 

said the minister's proposal was a "draconian" way of reducing emissions] A simple pricing signal to the buying public would be most effective, he said.

 

 

Why is this move draconian? Have I missed something?


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