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Obraik
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  #2274217 10-Jul-2019 18:28
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frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394036/national-critical-of-government-s-clean-vehicle-incentive-plan

 

Short extract:

 

Ms Bennett said National was not against incentives for electric vehicles.

 

"We see the benefits in cleaner emissions from vehicles.

 

"Electric vehicles and other vehicles with low emissions are a great thing.

 

"It's the penalising of those who don't have alternatives that I think is really unfair.

 

"Its another tax, another cost on those small businesses, the tradies the farmers, those that are doing the hard grind out there."

 

It's worth reading the full article, which also mentions that:

 

Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association chief executive David Vinsen yesterday

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393967/clean-car-discount-supply-standard-ignores-consultations-imported-motor-vehicle-association

 

said the minister's proposal was a "draconian" way of reducing emissions] A simple pricing signal to the buying public would be most effective, he said.

 

 

So National isn't against EV incentives but is against a levy.  So who does National expect to pay for the incentives?  I think it's pretty fair that those who are creating the pollution are the ones funding it


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frednz

1431 posts

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  #2274280 10-Jul-2019 19:48
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394036/national-critical-of-government-s-clean-vehicle-incentive-plan

 

Short extract:

 

Ms Bennett said National was not against incentives for electric vehicles.

 

"We see the benefits in cleaner emissions from vehicles.

 

"Electric vehicles and other vehicles with low emissions are a great thing.

 

"It's the penalising of those who don't have alternatives that I think is really unfair.

 

"Its another tax, another cost on those small businesses, the tradies the farmers, those that are doing the hard grind out there."

 

It's worth reading the full article, which also mentions that:

 

Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association chief executive David Vinsen yesterday

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393967/clean-car-discount-supply-standard-ignores-consultations-imported-motor-vehicle-association

 

said the minister's proposal was a "draconian" way of reducing emissions] A simple pricing signal to the buying public would be most effective, he said.

 

 

Why is this move draconian? Have I missed something?

 

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018703276

 

This question was also asked in the above interview and David Vinsen explained in some detail why he used the word "draconian".


tdgeek
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  #2274306 10-Jul-2019 20:40
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394036/national-critical-of-government-s-clean-vehicle-incentive-plan

 

Short extract:

 

Ms Bennett said National was not against incentives for electric vehicles.

 

"We see the benefits in cleaner emissions from vehicles.

 

"Electric vehicles and other vehicles with low emissions are a great thing.

 

"It's the penalising of those who don't have alternatives that I think is really unfair.

 

"Its another tax, another cost on those small businesses, the tradies the farmers, those that are doing the hard grind out there."

 

It's worth reading the full article, which also mentions that:

 

Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association chief executive David Vinsen yesterday

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/393967/clean-car-discount-supply-standard-ignores-consultations-imported-motor-vehicle-association

 

said the minister's proposal was a "draconian" way of reducing emissions] A simple pricing signal to the buying public would be most effective, he said.

 

 

Why is this move draconian? Have I missed something?

 

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018703276

 

This question was also asked in the above interview and David Vinsen explained in some detail why he used the word "draconian".

 

 

Thanks Fred.

 

So, the feebate scheme is fine as that influences what we want to buy. But its "draconian"to ask importers to bring in cars that are low emissions. He used a lot of words to complain, but the issue is apparently the need to have an average emission level that his cars have? What I note is lots of adjectives and no detail on his problem. Feebate means you and I will buy EV's, hybrids, Swifts. This importer has a problem that he needs to manage the average emissions of these 100 EV's, Hybrids, Swifts that he imports? 




Linuxluver
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  #2274341 10-Jul-2019 21:14
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Obraik:

 

So National isn't against EV incentives but is against a levy.  So who does National expect to pay for the incentives?  I think it's pretty fair that those who are creating the pollution are the ones funding it

 



I agree: polluters pay. Funny how National is all about responsibility and accountability until it's their voters who need to be responsible and accountable. But we've seen this before.

 

2008 to 2017 made it pretty clear National is happy to spend the money but won't raise the revenue to fund the spending. They just borrow more overseas. That's how the NZ govt's debt went from $10 billion in 2008 to over $93 billion in 2017....and the two tax cuts (despite the GFC and the Chch quakes) helped hugely.

It's fair to say National is the "Don't Tax But Spend Anyway" party......because that is *exactly* what they did for 9 years.

In that context, Bennett's comments make perfect sense.





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frednz

1431 posts

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  #2274417 11-Jul-2019 08:23
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I've just come across a FB post from Mark, who said that he knows 3 people who were about to order a Kona/eNiro, but all 3 have now decided to prolong using their diesel ICE cars until the subsidies kick in. For the sake of keeping this thread focused on the incentive issues (can we all do this) I won't quote the part of Mark's post that has a go at the current Green Party!

 

This is evidence of what a number of people have predicted about such a long lead-in time for these incentives, that is, people, even quite wealthy people, are going to wait until the subsidies arrive in 2021, and in the meantime, intend to use their existing ICE vehicles or buy brand new ICE vehicles before they go up in price.

 

In other words, just because you're wealthy, doesn't mean you're prepared to pay excessive amounts for the things you buy! In fact, part of the reason that people become wealthy is because they know how to negotiate the best prices for the things they buy.

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2274424 11-Jul-2019 08:34
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frednz:

 

I've just come across a FB post from Mark, who said that he knows 3 people who were about to order a Kona/eNiro, but all 3 have now decided to prolong using their diesel ICE cars until the subsidies kick in. For the sake of keeping this thread focused on the incentive issues (can we all do this) I won't quote the part of Mark's post that has a go at the current Green Party!

 

This is evidence of what a number of people have predicted about such a long lead-in time for these incentives, that is, people, even quite wealthy people, are going to wait until the subsidies arrive in 2021, and in the meantime, intend to use their existing ICE vehicles or buy brand new ICE vehicles before they go up in price.

 

In other words, just because you're wealthy, doesn't mean you're prepared to pay excessive amounts for the things you buy! In fact, part of the reason that people become wealthy is because they know how to negotiate the best prices for the things they buy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People here have said the same, after promoting helping climate change.

 

Right now, what EV's, new, can I walk in and pay cash and drive away? Today. I get the impression there are none or at least few options. In 2021 there will be many, and hopefully ute type options

 

They say that its neutral so the penalty pays for the subsidy, so if we subside wealthy buyers who will buy anyway we are removing non wealthy buyers


GV27
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  #2274440 11-Jul-2019 09:23
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Upon reflection of this, I'm still annoyed about it not applying at registration. If I buy and bring in my own EV, it's still an EV.

 

The fact I'm not doing it through a car yard is meaningless in terms of what the scheme is setting out to achieve. 




Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2274451 11-Jul-2019 09:44
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tdgeek:

 

People here have said the same, after promoting helping climate change.

 

Right now, what EV's, new, can I walk in and pay cash and drive away? Today. I get the impression there are none or at least few options. In 2021 there will be many, and hopefully ute type options

 

They say that its neutral so the penalty pays for the subsidy, so if we subside wealthy buyers who will buy anyway we are removing non wealthy buyers

 

 

I don't think "limited options" is the reason they're holding off until 2021, it likely has more to do with not wanting it to overlap too much with the RUC incentive. 

 

There are a number of drive away options at the moment. I'd be surprised if Hyundai didn't have a few Ioniq's or even Kona's about that you could drive away in. Renault's Zoe has been on the market a while now so they're bound to have one you can buy and drive away in right away.  When I was test driving the e-Golf last year VW had a few different models across their Auckland dealers that I could have driven away in right away had I decided to go ahead.  Tesla has some inventory stock of Model S and Model X as well.  BMW's i3 should be available for drive away as well.


wellygary
6725 posts

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  #2274455 11-Jul-2019 09:51
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

People here have said the same, after promoting helping climate change.

 

Right now, what EV's, new, can I walk in and pay cash and drive away? Today. I get the impression there are none or at least few options. In 2021 there will be many, and hopefully ute type options

 

They say that its neutral so the penalty pays for the subsidy, so if we subside wealthy buyers who will buy anyway we are removing non wealthy buyers

 

 

I don't think "limited options" is the reason they're holding off until 2021, it likely has more to do with not wanting it to overlap too much with the RUC incentive. 

 

There are a number of drive away options at the moment. I'd be surprised if Hyundai didn't have a few Ioniq's or even Kona's about that you could drive away in. Renault's Zoe has been on the market a while now so they're bound to have one you can buy and drive away in right away.  When I was test driving the e-Golf last year VW had a few different models across their Auckland dealers that I could have driven away in right away had I decided to go ahead.  Tesla has some inventory stock of Model S and Model X as well.  BMW's i3 should be available for drive away as well.

 

 

Looks like the new leaf will be here next month....

 

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/new-nissan-leaf-launches-as-kiwi-subsidy-is-announced/

 

It will be very interesting to see how they do in 2020, with the promise of an 8K price cut to come in 2021, -

 

At 52K I think they could do very well

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2274456 11-Jul-2019 09:51
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

People here have said the same, after promoting helping climate change.

 

Right now, what EV's, new, can I walk in and pay cash and drive away? Today. I get the impression there are none or at least few options. In 2021 there will be many, and hopefully ute type options

 

They say that its neutral so the penalty pays for the subsidy, so if we subside wealthy buyers who will buy anyway we are removing non wealthy buyers

 

 

I don't think "limited options" is the reason they're holding off until 2021, it likely has more to do with not wanting it to overlap too much with the RUC incentive. 

 

There are a number of drive away options at the moment. I'd be surprised if Hyundai didn't have a few Ioniq's or even Kona's about that you could drive away in. Renault's Zoe has been on the market a while now so they're bound to have one you can buy and drive away in right away.  When I was test driving the e-Golf last year VW had a few different models across their Auckland dealers that I could have driven away in right away had I decided to go ahead.  Tesla has some inventory stock of Model S and Model X as well.  BMW's i3 should be available for drive away as well.

 

 

Thanks, a few then, which is good. They could cancel RUC sooner, but I guess then some will complain that they bought for no RUC and then getting ripped off. The more difficult option is setting up RUC to cater for EV's and especially hybrids 


tdgeek
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  #2274466 11-Jul-2019 10:03
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wellygary:

 

Looks like the new leaf will be here next month....

 

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/new-nissan-leaf-launches-as-kiwi-subsidy-is-announced/

 

It will be very interesting to see how they do in 2020, with the promise of an 8K price cut to come in 2021, -

 

At 52K I think they could do very well

 

 

 

 

And lets have a 3k dealer offer and make it $49,995, that has a customer friendly ring to it


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2274467 11-Jul-2019 10:05
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The RUC inequality between a hybrid and an EV is something they need to acknowledge. I'd recommend doing what I did and emailing (cleancars@transport.govt.nz) the Ministry to express your concern so they can hopefully make some amendments between now and 2021.


tdgeek
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  #2274468 11-Jul-2019 10:11
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Obraik:

 

The RUC inequality between a hybrid and an EV is something they need to acknowledge. I'd recommend doing what I did and emailing (cleancars@transport.govt.nz) the Ministry to express your concern so they can hopefully make some amendments between now and 2021.

 

 

From what I gather they haven't gone into that conversation yet, just said RUC subsidy ends. Its so obvious I'd be shocked if they havent realised the Hybrid issue


wellygary
6725 posts

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  #2274471 11-Jul-2019 10:12
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Obraik:

 

The RUC inequality between a hybrid and an EV is something they need to acknowledge. I'd recommend doing what I did and emailing (cleancars@transport.govt.nz) the Ministry to express your concern so they can hopefully make some amendments between now and 2021.

 

 

You will also get a chance to make a submission when it goes through Parliament, -

 

The RUC inequity is a long established problem

 

(Although it did have the perverse effect of pretty much keeping small diesel cars out of NZ- something Europe is now struggling to stamp out) 


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2274477 11-Jul-2019 10:29
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

The RUC inequality between a hybrid and an EV is something they need to acknowledge. I'd recommend doing what I did and emailing (cleancars@transport.govt.nz) the Ministry to express your concern so they can hopefully make some amendments between now and 2021.

 

 

From what I gather they haven't gone into that conversation yet, just said RUC subsidy ends. Its so obvious I'd be shocked if they havent realised the Hybrid issue

 

 

I think it's safer to voice that opinion now rather than assume they've already thought about that. 


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