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Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2275395 12-Jul-2019 15:39
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frednz:

 

Everyone realises that the Government Discussion Paper is not just dealing with EVs, but people are questioning whether it would have been better to give higher discounts to people who buy EVs, rather than reducing the overall amount available for EVs by giving discounts for the purchase of some lower emitting petrol vehicles.

 

Before the release of the Discussion Paper, I don't think anybody suggested that, in the fight against climate change, purchase discounts should be given to buyers of new lower emitting petrol vehicles. This could possibly show that the Government doesn't see the elimination of petrol vehicles from our roads as a high priority in the fight against climate change.

 

 

 

 

I personally would have preferred that no vehicle that emits emissions received a subsidy and at best had no levy (ie. their position doesn't change).  However, the proposed scheme does reduce what qualifies for a subsidy each year, eventually getting to the point where even hybrids receive no subsidy.


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  #2275452 12-Jul-2019 16:29
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frednz:

 

Before the release of the Discussion Paper, I don't think anybody suggested that, in the fight against climate change, purchase discounts should be given to buyers of new lower emitting petrol vehicles. This could possibly show that the Government doesn't see the elimination of petrol vehicles from our roads as a high priority in the fight against climate change.

 

 

This is indeed one of the most surprising aspects of the proposal. Also that the threshold for getting a credit is effectively not to be a worse-than-average car, rather than having to be to be a substantially-cleaner-than-average one.

 

The 'official' MOT page for this is here: https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/clean-cars/
Please note

 


Consultation Process

 

You can make submissions to the Ministry of Transport by either:

 

Consultation closes at 5pm on 20 August 2019.

 

Have your say, make a submission or complete the survey!

 

 

 

 

 

[Edit: grammar]


wellygary
6718 posts

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  #2275457 12-Jul-2019 16:56
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Another interesting "wrinkle"  is that the credit for "new vehicles" actually includes vehicles up to 3 years old....

 

"For the purposes of the Clean Car Discount, a new vehicle would also include vehicles up to three years old sold for the first time in New Zealand."

 

I can see NZ second hand dealers looking to obtain EVs 6-12 months old from the UK and Japan - Which have therefore been subject to the incentives in those countries,  and then also clip the NZ EV incentive ticket resulting in some significant savings off RRP  

 

They may even directly buy them new overseas themselves , register them for the required length of time and then export them to NZ...

 

 

 

I suspect the actual marque dealers will submit against this...  but it might slip through




frednz

1431 posts

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  #2275466 12-Jul-2019 17:13
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Obraik:

 

frednz:

 

Everyone realises that the Government Discussion Paper is not just dealing with EVs, but people are questioning whether it would have been better to give higher discounts to people who buy EVs, rather than reducing the overall amount available for EVs by giving discounts for the purchase of some lower emitting petrol vehicles.

 

Before the release of the Discussion Paper, I don't think anybody suggested that, in the fight against climate change, purchase discounts should be given to buyers of new lower emitting petrol vehicles. This could possibly show that the Government doesn't see the elimination of petrol vehicles from our roads as a high priority in the fight against climate change.

 

 

 

 

I personally would have preferred that no vehicle that emits emissions received a subsidy and at best had no levy (ie. their position doesn't change).  However, the proposed scheme does reduce what qualifies for a subsidy each year, eventually getting to the point where even hybrids receive no subsidy.

 

 

Yes, Appendix 4 of the Discussion Paper shows, for example, that a "new" Suzuki Swift (which includes vehicles up to and including three years old), receives a discount of $2,800 in 2021, $2,200 in 2022, $2,000 in 2023, $800 in 2024 and zero after that.

 

And even a "pure electric" BEV, such as, Hyundai Kona or VW e-Golf, starts off with a discount of $8,000 in 2021 which gradually reduces to $4,200 in 2028.

 

When you say "even hybrids" eventually get no subsidy, that doesn't apply to plug-in hybrids (PHEVs), but it does apply to hybrids that are not "plug-in".

 

It's a very interesting proposal, but I wonder whether any overseas countries have given discounts to buyers of lower emitting petrol vehicles as a means of reaching emissions targets?


tdgeek
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  #2275481 12-Jul-2019 18:21
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frednz:

 

It's a very interesting proposal, but I wonder whether any overseas countries have given discounts to buyers of lower emitting petrol vehicles as a means of reaching emissions targets?

 

 

No idea but what's wrong with that? If we had an EV to satisfy everyone then Id go HARD for ICE penalties. But we don't. The 3.8 M light vehicles we have are exempt. So emissions rule, that's my issue.


frednz

1431 posts

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  #2275501 12-Jul-2019 21:15
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

It's a very interesting proposal, but I wonder whether any overseas countries have given discounts to buyers of lower emitting petrol vehicles as a means of reaching emissions targets?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No idea but what's wrong with that? If we had an EV to satisfy everyone then Id go HARD for ICE penalties. But we don't. The 3.8 M light vehicles we have are exempt. So emissions rule, that's my issue.

 



Well at least there has been little or no objection to the proposal that new EVs can be discounted in 2021 by as much as $8,000, so that's a step in the right direction and I'm sure this policy will survive the review process.

But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.

 

In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!


wsnz
630 posts

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  #2275766 13-Jul-2019 12:34
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frednz:

 


But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.

 

In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!

 

 

As others have metnioned, given this is an emissions policy, not an EV policy, I don't believe it sends any mixed messages. It's a pragmatic decision based on availability of technology, in order to reduce emissions. 

 

If the policy was to provide subsidies on pure hydrocarbon powered vehicles, then perhaps there would be an issue, although it could be argued that any new vehicle that can lower our emissions is a solution to the emissions issue. 




alasta
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  #2275771 13-Jul-2019 12:52
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It seems that some people think there should be an incentive to choose an Ioniq electric over an Ioniq hybrid, but no incentive to choose an Ioniq hybrid over a dual cab ute.

 

I don't understand the logic in that. 


frednz

1431 posts

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  #2275786 13-Jul-2019 14:04
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wsnz:

frednz:



But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.


In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!



As others have metnioned, given this is an emissions policy, not an EV policy, I don't believe it sends any mixed messages. It's a pragmatic decision based on availability of technology, in order to reduce emissions. 


If the policy was to provide subsidies on pure hydrocarbon powered vehicles, then perhaps there would be an issue, although it could be argued that any new vehicle that can lower our emissions is a solution to the emissions issue. 



Well if this is such a good idea, why have no other countries provided discounts for buying lower emitting petrol vehicles? This proposal seems to say that it's ok for the next few years to buy petrol vehicles even though climate scientists say we have an imminent emergency on our hands. The supply of EVs is gradually improving and the prices will decrease, but all the feebate money needs to go into EVs as it has in every other country that has dealt with this situation!

tdgeek
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  #2275959 13-Jul-2019 17:25
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

It's a very interesting proposal, but I wonder whether any overseas countries have given discounts to buyers of lower emitting petrol vehicles as a means of reaching emissions targets?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No idea but what's wrong with that? If we had an EV to satisfy everyone then Id go HARD for ICE penalties. But we don't. The 3.8 M light vehicles we have are exempt. So emissions rule, that's my issue.

 



Well at least there has been little or no objection to the proposal that new EVs can be discounted in 2021 by as much as $8,000, so that's a step in the right direction and I'm sure this policy will survive the review process.

But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.

 

In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!

 

 

ALL of us want climate change moves, agreed? This move is a start, and any start is a good start, but its a miniscule change to emissions. Miniscule. An EV purchaser will not benefit form the 8k as they will buy anyway, a waste of money that can be used for climate change moves elsewhere. A smaller discount for a Swift will be more likely to incentivise a purchase from a 1984 Telstar to a 2020 Swift and reduce emissions. 

 

The Govt move is NOT an EV move its an emission move. Are you opposed to reducing emissions? The person that can afford an upgrade to a Swift cannot afford an overpriced  EV. So if you oppose that, you oppose emission reductions. The key is there are not 500,000 EV's at your local port awaiting delivery. ICE is here for a LONG time. Thats what you need to get your hand around. EV's are not a panacea to save the world, in fact they do almost nothing, as there are not 500,000 at the local port and millions in production. Yet we want to subsidise existing purchases. An incentive means that the subsidy will grow sales. That false here's there are already sales, and waiting lists. And people here have stated they will hold off for the cash, and in that time, happily emit CO2.

 

You are one of those people. Is it climate change or is it emissions or is it cash?

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2275960 13-Jul-2019 17:26
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wsnz:

 

frednz:

 


But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.

 

In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!

 

 

As others have metnioned, given this is an emissions policy, not an EV policy, I don't believe it sends any mixed messages. It's a pragmatic decision based on availability of technology, in order to reduce emissions. 

 

If the policy was to provide subsidies on pure hydrocarbon powered vehicles, then perhaps there would be an issue, although it could be argued that any new vehicle that can lower our emissions is a solution to the emissions issue. 

 

 

Yes. EV's can. Hybrids can. Hydrogen can.  Swifts can. So we have subsidies accordingly. 


tdgeek
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  #2275961 13-Jul-2019 17:30
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frednz:
wsnz:

 

frednz:

 

 

 


But I'm not so sure about discounting lower emission petrol vehicles. Whether or not there's enough EVs to replace millions of petrol vehicles isn't the issue. The main thing is that it sends a very unexpected message to people, which is that the NZ Government is prepared to discount the purchase of some new petrol vehicles.

 

 

 

In any event, everybody who has so far wanted to buy an EV has been able to do so, even if in some instances, this has involved being on a waiting list for a few months. The notion that millions of EVs will be required all at once is not relevant because, even with strong incentives, I believe all those who want EVs will be able to get them.

Now, to those people on this forum who have actively opposed incentives on EVs, the idea of discounting some lower emission petrol vehicles surely can't be given the thumbs up!

 

 

 

 

 

 

As others have metnioned, given this is an emissions policy, not an EV policy, I don't believe it sends any mixed messages. It's a pragmatic decision based on availability of technology, in order to reduce emissions. 

 

 

 

If the policy was to provide subsidies on pure hydrocarbon powered vehicles, then perhaps there would be an issue, although it could be argued that any new vehicle that can lower our emissions is a solution to the emissions issue. 

 



Well if this is such a good idea, why have no other countries provided discounts for buying lower emitting petrol vehicles? This proposal seems to say that it's ok for the next few years to buy petrol vehicles even though climate scientists say we have an imminent emergency on our hands. The supply of EVs is gradually improving and the prices will decrease, but all the feebate money needs to go into EVs as it has in every other country that has dealt with this situation!

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2276039 13-Jul-2019 18:41
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tdgeek:

 

ALL of us want climate change moves, agreed? This move is a start, and any start is a good start, but its a miniscule change to emissions. Miniscule. An EV purchaser will not benefit form the 8k as they will buy anyway, a waste of money that can be used for climate change moves elsewhere. A smaller discount for a Swift will be more likely to incentivise a purchase from a 1984 Telstar to a 2020 Swift and reduce emissions. 

 

The Govt move is NOT an EV move its an emission move. Are you opposed to reducing emissions? The person that can afford an upgrade to a Swift cannot afford an overpriced  EV. So if you oppose that, you oppose emission reductions. The key is there are not 500,000 EV's at your local port awaiting delivery. ICE is here for a LONG time. Thats what you need to get your hand around. EV's are not a panacea to save the world, in fact they do almost nothing, as there are not 500,000 at the local port and millions in production. Yet we want to subsidise existing purchases. An incentive means that the subsidy will grow sales. That false here's there are already sales, and waiting lists. And people here have stated they will hold off for the cash, and in that time, happily emit CO2.

 

You are one of those people. Is it climate change or is it emissions or is it cash?

 

 

 

 

Where is this 500,000 figure coming from?


frednz

1431 posts

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  #2276041 13-Jul-2019 18:44
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tdgeek:

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.

 

 

If somebody supports EV discounts, this is mainly because they want people to buy EVs so that this will help meet NZ's emission targets, and I think this is the view of most of the people who have posted to this thread.

 

However, there is less support for the view that the Government should provide discounts for some petrol vehicles, and no other country in the world has done this.

 

Incidentally, can you please tell us how you arrived at the figure of 500,000 EVs.

 

 


afe66
2920 posts

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  #2276047 13-Jul-2019 19:09
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Not bringing in emission testing as part of WOF makes this hole process futile. The nasty old poorly tuned cars will continue to be used until finally beside down after many years..

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