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tdgeek
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  #2276527 14-Jul-2019 20:54
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frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394334/bridges-clean-vehicles-plan-would-cost-up-to-half-billion-dollars

 

Extract from above:

 

... Mr Bridges said the claim the scheme would be revenue neutral was incorrect.

 

"Even if you saw a doubling of EVs and small cars, which I think in itself is a pretty strong ask, on the numbers we've crunched there's four-to five hundred-million dollars in taxes coming in over subsidies and that's a sneaky half-a-billion dollar tax grab into the government's coffers."

 

He said even if imports of electric and low-emission cars doubles - putting an extra 26,000 on the roads annually - the scheme would raise more in taxes than it pays out in subsidies each year, adding up to between $400 million and $500m over the first five years.

 

 

Not sure of what point you  are raising. 

 

Lets say 160,000 cars at $3000 which is overstated 480M

 

Lets say 26000 EV's at a full $8000 which is overstated 208M

 

I cant see the issue. Its not even possible at all to get a half billion tax grab. There went be anywhere near that amount collected. Thats your answer. There is little point reading Nationals or Labours spin if you are looking at facts.


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tdgeek
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  #2276532 14-Jul-2019 21:01
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My error, over the first few years. So that means that ICE will continue to grow and EV's won't? What I imagine will happen is that the lower sector of ICE will drop in sales, as the $3000 IIRC will add a reasonable amount to the lower end. ICE buyers will thus hold onto their cars. So zero revenue there. If EV prices can reduce, and if many models are available, you would expect a good demand. In the first year the dollars will be more at the collected end. as time goes on as ICE reduces and EV's increase that will reverse. That will all be plainly visible and will cause the Govt of the day to see the end date, or too alter the $, to allow it to retain tax neutral. I guess Simon can read the future. 


jjnz1
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  #2276533 14-Jul-2019 21:03
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tdgeek:

 

If a person buys a subsidised Swift and if they were not going to buy new, then the will reduce emissions. Maybe some are buying new anyway, but then again every Tesla buyer or 80k Kona buyer or even 60k Leaf buyer was prompted due to the low subsidy. So a wasted subsidy

 

 

I think you might have some really interesting points of view here - maybe a slight edit will help us understand what you're trying to say here :)

 

tdgeek:

 

If you want to buy new you want to avoid a used car, of which lemons are a variety. Everyone knows that. But whatever Or will we get an 8k subsidy off a 2011 Leaf

 

 

When I read the documents from Ministry of Transport, one idea from the document is that the subsidy is not applied to any existing registered car in NZ. So only imports and new cars will be eligible for a subsidy. This would make the $22k 2 year old Leaf a perfect car for second hand buyer no? An $8k subsidy off this price would be fantasic! 

 

tdgeek:

 

I am also telling you that EV's are too costly to run. Like Solar. Both are too costly so that the premium you pay makes savings irrelevant. Buy an 80k Kina, pop 40 not the bank for petrol, let alone depreciation. The math doesn't work. As it doesn't for most with solar also, so a sound comparison. 

 

 

Factually incorrect. Especially if you only pay 9c/kwhr to charge your car! (Thank you Meridian!) Also, no oil, engine seals and gaskets, water pumps etc etc. And once Tesla's come down in price and the uptake is bigger, these cars have even less parts. Unless you are trying to say the cost of the car payments makes makes these things too costly to run? 

 

tdgeek:

 

I expect Hybrids will dominate in the short to medium term as they are close to price parity and offer the savings.

 

 

Agreed. 




tdgeek
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  #2276539 14-Jul-2019 21:16
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jjnz1:

 

tdgeek:

 

If a person buys a subsidised Swift and if they were not going to buy new, then the will reduce emissions. Maybe some are buying new anyway, but then again every Tesla buyer or 80k Kona buyer or even 60k Leaf buyer was prompted due to the low subsidy. So a wasted subsidy

 

 

I think you might have some really interesting points of view here - maybe a slight edit will help us understand what you're trying to say here :)

 

If I buy a Swift as new I can afford new, I will emit less per km than with the old dunger. If I buy a Tesla or any EV, I am buying it anyway so the subsidy is wasted. 8k won't get me over the line

 

tdgeek:

 

If you want to buy new you want to avoid a used car, of which lemons are a variety. Everyone knows that. But whatever Or will we get an 8k subsidy off a 2011 Leaf

 

 

When I read the documents from Ministry of Transport, one idea from the document is that the subsidy is not applied to any existing registered car in NZ. So only imports and new cars will be eligible for a subsidy. This would make the $22k 2 year old Leaf a perfect car for second hand buyer no? An $8k subsidy off this price would be fantasic! 

 

If they gave 8k of an old Leaf, I'd import old Leafs. 59k for a new Leaf. 22k for a 2yo Leaf? Thats a lot of depreciation, after allowing for 24kW vs 40kW

 

tdgeek:

 

I am also telling you that EV's are too costly to run. Like Solar. Both are too costly so that the premium you pay makes savings irrelevant. Buy an 80k Kina, pop 40 not the bank for petrol, let alone depreciation. The math doesn't work. As it doesn't for most with solar also, so a sound comparison. 

 

 

Factually incorrect. Especially if you only pay 9c/kwhr to charge your car! (Thank you Meridian!) Also, no oil, engine seals and gaskets, water pumps etc etc. And once Tesla's come down in price and the uptake is bigger, these cars have even less parts. Unless you are trying to say the cost of the car payments makes makes these things too costly to run? 

 

30c per litre equivalent. RUC 70c thats $1 per litre equivalent. Yes you might get your good deal. Oil, water pumps etc dont matter. So, lets say $1 per litres that about half the price of petrol. That great but its not huge. Kona you are paying $32000 more. With cost of ownership of that money you will never recover the premium. Its needs somewhere close to price parity

 

tdgeek:

 

I expect Hybrids will dominate in the short to medium term as they are close to price parity and offer the savings.

 

 

Agreed. 

 

 

About to bat now, bye!


prob
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  #2276563 14-Jul-2019 22:34
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I went to a dealership on Friday to look at a Leaf. For whatever reason, and perhaps because of the prospect of the incentive, they had lots of Leafs on the lot. The salesman said that they were overstocked. Purchasers like me may now put off a purchase which will make it a difficult time for dealers unless they discount.


Guilliman
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  #2276913 15-Jul-2019 12:48
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GVI certainly have a huge chunk of their listings as various Leafs. Last time I was nosy they even had a few of the eNV-200 vans. Seen a couple of tradies driving them around.

frednz

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  #2277891 16-Jul-2019 18:55
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frednz:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394334/bridges-clean-vehicles-plan-would-cost-up-to-half-billion-dollars


Extract from above:


... Mr Bridges said the claim the scheme would be revenue neutral was incorrect.


"Even if you saw a doubling of EVs and small cars, which I think in itself is a pretty strong ask, on the numbers we've crunched there's four-to five hundred-million dollars in taxes coming in over subsidies and that's a sneaky half-a-billion dollar tax grab into the government's coffers."


He said even if imports of electric and low-emission cars doubles - putting an extra 26,000 on the roads annually - the scheme would raise more in taxes than it pays out in subsidies each year, adding up to between $400 million and $500m over the first five years.



A quick update on this...on TV3 news tonight it was mentioned that if the Govt receives more in taxes than the subsidies paid out, then this surplus will be used to increase the amount of the discounts paid out.



tdgeek
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  #2277903 16-Jul-2019 19:09
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frednz:
frednz:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394334/bridges-clean-vehicles-plan-would-cost-up-to-half-billion-dollars

 

 

 

Extract from above:

 

 

 

... Mr Bridges said the claim the scheme would be revenue neutral was incorrect.

 

 

 

"Even if you saw a doubling of EVs and small cars, which I think in itself is a pretty strong ask, on the numbers we've crunched there's four-to five hundred-million dollars in taxes coming in over subsidies and that's a sneaky half-a-billion dollar tax grab into the government's coffers."

 

 

 

He said even if imports of electric and low-emission cars doubles - putting an extra 26,000 on the roads annually - the scheme would raise more in taxes than it pays out in subsidies each year, adding up to between $400 million and $500m over the first five years.

 



A quick update on this...on TV3 news tonight it was mentioned that if the Govt receives more in taxes than the subsidies paid out, then this surplus will be used to increase the amount of the discounts paid out.

 

I don't now what to say on that, its patently obvious. The tax and subsidy is not linear. To begin with they will collect more tax, any idiot can see that. Its less than basic math. Over time, ICE will reduce. EV/Hybrids/Swifts will increase. There will be a point where the tax will fall short so they will reduce the subsidy, They already said that. I just dont get what the news is? Its already been said. 

 

I dont see the positive or the negative here. Its already been spelled out


frednz

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  #2277906 16-Jul-2019 19:17
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tdgeek:

frednz:
frednz:


https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/394334/bridges-clean-vehicles-plan-would-cost-up-to-half-billion-dollars


 


Extract from above:


 


... Mr Bridges said the claim the scheme would be revenue neutral was incorrect.


 


"Even if you saw a doubling of EVs and small cars, which I think in itself is a pretty strong ask, on the numbers we've crunched there's four-to five hundred-million dollars in taxes coming in over subsidies and that's a sneaky half-a-billion dollar tax grab into the government's coffers."


 


He said even if imports of electric and low-emission cars doubles - putting an extra 26,000 on the roads annually - the scheme would raise more in taxes than it pays out in subsidies each year, adding up to between $400 million and $500m over the first five years.




A quick update on this...on TV3 news tonight it was mentioned that if the Govt receives more in taxes than the subsidies paid out, then this surplus will be used to increase the amount of the discounts paid out.


I don't now what to say on that, its patently obvious. The tax and subsidy is not linear. To begin with they will collect more tax, any idiot can see that. Its less than basic math. Over time, ICE will reduce. EV/Hybrids/Swifts will increase. There will be a point where the tax will fall short so they will reduce the subsidy, They already said that. I just dont get what the news is? Its already been said. 


I dont see the positive or the negative here. Its already been spelled out



Mr Bridges said that any surplus would go into the Government's coffers, so I'm merely reporting what a news item said. I dont think the Government had made this point clear otherwise Simon wouldn't have made his observation on this.

tdgeek
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  #2277909 16-Jul-2019 19:22
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Oh, so Simon has bagged the Govt. And as the Govt has nit confirmed he is bagging them, what "Simon Says" is a fact? This thread becomes more bizarre.

 

The Govt has stated its tax neutral. So, taxes equal subsidies. They said that when taxes reduce the subsidies will as well as the effect has occurred. Thats already been stated. If the move is tax neutral then unless the Govt is lying, its tax neutral. 

 

Ive already stated that obviously the initial collection will exceed subsidies. Again, I just dont get the comments. Its tax neutral. Is the Govt dying or is Simon lying?


Obraik
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  #2277911 16-Jul-2019 19:26
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tdgeek:

 

Oh, so Simon has bagged the Govt. And as the Govt has nit confirmed he is bagging them, what "Simon Says" is a fact? This thread becomes more bizarre.

 

The Govt has stated its tax neutral. So, taxes equal subsidies. They said that when taxes reduce the subsidies will as well as the effect has occurred. Thats already been stated. If the move is tax neutral then unless the Govt is lying, its tax neutral. 

 

Ive already stated that obviously the initial collection will exceed subsidies. Again, I just dont get the comments. Its tax neutral. Is the Govt dying or is Simon lying?

 

 

Simon is accusing the government of taking in more money than it needs.  Or more simply, Simon is taking an opportunity to put egg on his face again.


frednz

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  #2277912 16-Jul-2019 19:30
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tdgeek:

Oh, so Simon has bagged the Govt. And as the Govt has nit confirmed he is bagging them, what "Simon Says" is a fact? This thread becomes more bizarre.


The Govt has stated its tax neutral. So, taxes equal subsidies. They said that when taxes reduce the subsidies will as well as the effect has occurred. Thats already been stated. If the move is tax neutral then unless the Govt is lying, its tax neutral. 


Ive already stated that obviously the initial collection will ex

ceed subsidies. Again, I just dont get the comments. Its tax neutral. Is the Govt dying or is Simon lying?



I'll leave you to work that one out! But I don't think the Government is "dying" just yet!

tdgeek
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  #2278027 17-Jul-2019 07:09
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frednz:
tdgeek:

 

Oh, so Simon has bagged the Govt. And as the Govt has nit confirmed he is bagging them, what "Simon Says" is a fact? This thread becomes more bizarre.

 

 

 

The Govt has stated its tax neutral. So, taxes equal subsidies. They said that when taxes reduce the subsidies will as well as the effect has occurred. Thats already been stated. If the move is tax neutral then unless the Govt is lying, its tax neutral. 

 

 

 

Ive already stated that obviously the initial collection will ex

ceed subsidies. Again, I just dont get the comments. Its tax neutral. Is the Govt dying or is Simon lying?

 



I'll leave you to work that one out! But I don't think the Government is "dying" just yet!

 

Oops, lying, not dying!

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2278055 17-Jul-2019 08:27
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What is Nationals climate change policy?

 

(To evaluate the effect with transport, compared to the Govt's recent policy)


frednz

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  #2278067 17-Jul-2019 08:51
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tdgeek:

 

What is Nationals climate change policy?

 

(To evaluate the effect with transport, compared to the Govt's recent policy)

 

 

Before a moderator has to jump in here, I would suggest that this question might be better asked in the Political Forum on this topic. 


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