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tdgeek
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  #2278108 17-Jul-2019 08:59
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

What is Nationals climate change policy?

 

(To evaluate the effect with transport, compared to the Govt's recent policy)

 

 

Before a moderator has to jump in here, I would suggest that this question might be better asked in the Political Forum on this topic. 

 

 

Why is that?

 

This topic is about EV's and in particular about Govt incentives on EV's. Being Government its already political but the essence of the topic is EV's. I'm just asking the incentives from the Opposition so that we have a balance of Government options, which given that a change in Govt might occur next year, we can see what the medium term incentive layout looks like


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frednz

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  #2278119 17-Jul-2019 09:12
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

What is Nationals climate change policy?

 

(To evaluate the effect with transport, compared to the Govt's recent policy)

 

 

Before a moderator has to jump in here, I would suggest that this question might be better asked in the Political Forum on this topic. 

 

 

Why is that?

 

This topic is about EV's and in particular about Govt incentives on EV's. Being Government its already political but the essence of the topic is EV's. I'm just asking the incentives from the Opposition so that we have a balance of Government options, which given that a change in Govt might occur next year, we can see what the medium term incentive layout looks like

 

 

Well obviously I'm not a moderator and people can post whatever they like, but the thread was originally designed so that people could provide news and views about the current Government's EV incentives, and not for discussing a whole lot of speculative political material about what may, or may not be, the policies of other political parties on this topic. 

 

So, I'm out of here on this type of discussion and the endless argument it would cause, all of which is far more appropriate in the Political forum.


frednz

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  #2295084 12-Aug-2019 19:49
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114878111/dealer-calls-for-faster-ev-feebate-scheme-as-the-mta-lists-its-niggles

 

From the above:

 

Some car-buyers are already deciding to delay buying electric vehicles until "feebates" kick-in in 2021, according to a Christchurch car dealer who is calling for the Government to speed up the incentive scheme for EVs and other low-emission vehicles.

 

Yes, it does seem that a lot of people are going to wait until the feebate scheme kicks in before buying an EV. This is understandable when a rebate of up to $8,000 off the price of some EVs is proposed by the Government.

 

This extract is also interesting:

 

The MTA also believed both the feebates and the clean car standard could be undermined by a loophole for private car importers, he said.

 

If the loophole wasn't closed, it foresaw entrepreneurs setting up online platforms to help private cars buyers import higher-emissions vehicles direct from overseas to avoid import fees, also undermining consumer protections in the industry.

 

"None of these penalties apply to privately imported vehicles, so we expect we will see a whole bunch of business people offering to broker imports for people."

 

Genter said she was confident the Government would find workable solutions to that sort of regulatory challenge.




ockel
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  #2307939 29-Aug-2019 17:04
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From Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115386338/julie-anne-genter-backs-car-feebate-emissions-scheme-despite-treasury-criticism

 

 

 

"Treasury officials have rubbished the government's "feebate" scheme, warning it will have an infinitesimal effect on carbon emissions over two decades.

 

But Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter says Treasury is "wrong" and its approach is "totally untenable"."

 

 

 

Recall that Treasury was criticised by Twyford that its analysis of Kiwibuild was wrong.  Now another Minister wants to second guess the smart people about effects of policy.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2307960 29-Aug-2019 17:39
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ockel:

 

From Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115386338/julie-anne-genter-backs-car-feebate-emissions-scheme-despite-treasury-criticism

 

 

 

"Treasury officials have rubbished the government's "feebate" scheme, warning it will have an infinitesimal effect on carbon emissions over two decades.

 

But Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter says Treasury is "wrong" and its approach is "totally untenable"."

 

 

 

Recall that Treasury was criticised by Twyford that its analysis of Kiwibuild was wrong.  Now another Minister wants to second guess the smart people about effects of policy.

 

 

 

 

I agree. Treasury are correct. It won't make much difference at all, for all the obvious reasons.

 

1. EV fans who want one now will buy one anyway. In fact many will buy in 2020, not now

 

2. When prices come closer to ICE prices, EV sales will look after themselves.


Obraik
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  #2307976 29-Aug-2019 18:10
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ockel:

 

From Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115386338/julie-anne-genter-backs-car-feebate-emissions-scheme-despite-treasury-criticism

 

 

 

"Treasury officials have rubbished the government's "feebate" scheme, warning it will have an infinitesimal effect on carbon emissions over two decades.

 

But Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter says Treasury is "wrong" and its approach is "totally untenable"."

 

 

 

Recall that Treasury was criticised by Twyford that its analysis of Kiwibuild was wrong.  Now another Minister wants to second guess the smart people about effects of policy.

 

 

 

 

No where in that article does it actually mention how Treasury came to that conclusion.  Maybe those in Treasury should get in touch with their counterparts in countries in other parts of the world and let them know that they should scrap their incentives too.


tdgeek
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  #2307984 29-Aug-2019 18:28
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Obraik:

 

ockel:

 

From Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115386338/julie-anne-genter-backs-car-feebate-emissions-scheme-despite-treasury-criticism

 

 

 

"Treasury officials have rubbished the government's "feebate" scheme, warning it will have an infinitesimal effect on carbon emissions over two decades.

 

But Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter says Treasury is "wrong" and its approach is "totally untenable"."

 

 

 

Recall that Treasury was criticised by Twyford that its analysis of Kiwibuild was wrong.  Now another Minister wants to second guess the smart people about effects of policy.

 

 

 

 

No where in that article does it actually mention how Treasury came to that conclusion.  Maybe those in Treasury should get in touch with their counterparts in countries in other parts of the world and let them know that they should scrap their incentives too.

 

 

Are Treasury wrong? Is Genter wrong? Who do you want to be wrong?

 

NZ isn't the same as every other country. Salary to car price ratio, EV to ICE ratio, fuel price, RUC, these all differ. 

 

I don't know if Treasure is wrong or if they are right. But you dont really want Treasury to be wrong as you are an EV fan. Im an EV fan too, but you need to be realistic. 

 

Its hard to pay double the price and see that as worthwhile? $8000 is not going to change your world or your decision if you are paying $80,000 for a $40,000 ICE equivalent. The fuel savings are only 50%. Thats a lot of fuel to recover 40k.

 

When the cars are closer to an ICE, for NZ, that will cause sales. 

 

The point that Treasury is making is that for you, as one example, the feebate system fails. 




ockel
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  #2308000 29-Aug-2019 18:41
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Obraik:

 

ockel:

 

From Stuff: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/115386338/julie-anne-genter-backs-car-feebate-emissions-scheme-despite-treasury-criticism

 

 

 

"Treasury officials have rubbished the government's "feebate" scheme, warning it will have an infinitesimal effect on carbon emissions over two decades.

 

But Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter says Treasury is "wrong" and its approach is "totally untenable"."

 

 

 

Recall that Treasury was criticised by Twyford that its analysis of Kiwibuild was wrong.  Now another Minister wants to second guess the smart people about effects of policy.

 

 

 

 

No where in that article does it actually mention how Treasury came to that conclusion.  Maybe those in Treasury should get in touch with their counterparts in countries in other parts of the world and let them know that they should scrap their incentives too.

 

 

No it doesnt.  And you note that the media had to use the OIA to obtain the Treasury report.  Perhaps you can use the OIA to find out yourself.  It should be an easy request.


Dingbatt
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  #2308002 29-Aug-2019 18:44
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I wonder how much difference the $80K cutoff makes. Not much of not much (according to Treasury) would be my guess, but at least it doesn’t benefit the ‘rich’, which satisfies the non environmental part of the Greens.

 

Not a great day for the environment, Treasury knocking back Genter’s pet project and David Parker torpedoing a green power project on the West Coast.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


tdgeek
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  #2308003 29-Aug-2019 18:45
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Disecting the article

 

"Neither measure would have a significant impact on emissions," the document says.

 

The report points to Transport Ministry projections which predict the "feebate" scheme would reduce emissions by just 1.6 million tonnes over 20 years.

 

For comparison, New Zealand's gross emissions are estimated at 80.9 million tonnes per year.

 

 

 

In ONE year we emit 81 million tonnes. In TWENTY years, the scheme reduces by 1.6 million tonnes TOTAL. 

 

Less than one tenth of 1%. Why so low? We have 3.8M light vehicles, we import 160,000 per year, EV imports will be very low, and MUCH lower, are the EV sales that would not happen unless there was a subsidy. This is because the gap here, in NZ, is so large. The price gap, the gap between a salary and an EV, compared to an ICE, and the gap of fuel savings, which is low at about 50%

 

Once EV;s reduce in price, demand will be huge. Thats not now nor is it 2020. But lets say in 2020 when the subsidy comes into effect, EV prices reduce a LOT. EV sales will be HIGH. Really high. But thats because of the price not the $8000 


Obraik
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  #2308005 29-Aug-2019 18:47
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Are Treasury wrong? Is Genter wrong? Who do you want to be wrong?

 

NZ isn't the same as every other country. Salary to car price ratio, EV to ICE ratio, fuel price, RUC, these all differ. 

 

I don't know if Treasure is wrong or if they are right. But you dont really want Treasury to be wrong as you are an EV fan. Im an EV fan too, but you need to be realistic. 

 

Its hard to pay double the price and see that as worthwhile? $8000 is not going to change your world or your decision if you are paying $80,000 for a $40,000 ICE equivalent. The fuel savings are only 50%. Thats a lot of fuel to recover 40k.

 

When the cars are closer to an ICE, for NZ, that will cause sales. 

 

The point that Treasury is making is that for you, as one example, the feebate system fails. 

 

 

Wouldn't be a tdgeek reply without the "you're a EV fan, there's no way you can know anything" reply ;)

 

That was my point, there's no details on how Treasury came to that conclusion and without that one can't say if they're accurate or not. However, I see you're happy to go by their statement without seeing any actual workings. Treasury did just recently try and shift blame from their screwup to being a "hack" so, they're not flawless.

 

Saying NZ "isn't the same as every other country" is a cop out. New Zealand isn't as rich as many other countries but we're not poor either. People buy new cars in New Zealand. The point of the feebate is to shift people who do buy new cars from buying ICE vehicles to buying EVs/low emission vehicles.


Obraik
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  #2308006 29-Aug-2019 18:49
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ockel:

 

No it doesnt.  And you note that the media had to use the OIA to obtain the Treasury report.  Perhaps you can use the OIA to find out yourself.  It should be an easy request.

 

 

One has to ask why the media who made the request didn't include this in their story and instead focused on the "he said she said" aspect between Treasury and Genter.


tdgeek
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  #2308009 29-Aug-2019 18:53
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Dingbatt:

 

I wonder how much difference the $80K cutoff makes. Not much of not much (according to Treasury) would be my guess, but at least it doesn’t benefit the ‘rich’, which satisfies the non environmental part of the Greens.

 

Not a great day for the environment, Treasury knocking back Genter’s pet project and David Parker torpedoing a green power project on the West Coast.

 

 

No difference. If you want to buy a 100k EV you will. if you want to buy a 80k EV you will. That you get 8k off the 80k EV is just a free holiday, you will buy it anyway. Its time will come, when the huge gaps close. 

 

Yes, poor decision by Parker. Maybe we could shut down some hydro stations down south and replant ferns and hebes? Good for nature.

 

Humans are actually part of nature too, David. 


Dingbatt
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  #2308010 29-Aug-2019 18:57
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Obraik:

 

ockel:

 

No it doesnt.  And you note that the media had to use the OIA to obtain the Treasury report.  Perhaps you can use the OIA to find out yourself.  It should be an easy request.

 

 

One has to ask why the media who made the request didn't include this in their story and instead focused on the "he said she said" aspect between Treasury and Genter.

 

 

Because it’s the media?

 

At no stage did tdgeek say you know nothing, but perhaps you shouldn’t filter anything that doesn’t fit with your world view?





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


tdgeek
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  #2308017 29-Aug-2019 19:05
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Are Treasury wrong? Is Genter wrong? Who do you want to be wrong?

 

NZ isn't the same as every other country. Salary to car price ratio, EV to ICE ratio, fuel price, RUC, these all differ. 

 

I don't know if Treasure is wrong or if they are right. But you dont really want Treasury to be wrong as you are an EV fan. Im an EV fan too, but you need to be realistic. 

 

Its hard to pay double the price and see that as worthwhile? $8000 is not going to change your world or your decision if you are paying $80,000 for a $40,000 ICE equivalent. The fuel savings are only 50%. Thats a lot of fuel to recover 40k.

 

When the cars are closer to an ICE, for NZ, that will cause sales. 

 

The point that Treasury is making is that for you, as one example, the feebate system fails. 

 

 

Wouldn't be a tdgeek reply without the "you're a EV fan, there's no way you can know anything" reply ;)

 

That was my point, there's no details on how Treasury came to that conclusion and without that one can't say if they're accurate or not. However, I see you're happy to go by their statement without seeing any actual workings. Treasury did just recently try and shift blame from their screwup to being a "hack" so, they're not flawless.

 

Saying NZ "isn't the same as every other country" is a cop out. New Zealand isn't as rich as many other countries but we're not poor either. People buy new cars in New Zealand. The point of the feebate is to shift people who do buy new cars from buying ICE vehicles to buying EVs/low emission vehicles.

 

 

Dont be trite. We are all EV fans in this thread. 

 

Where are the details from Genter that she is correct? Is the less than 1/10th of one percent inaccurate? Treasury calls it infinitesimal. I agree. Genter says its substantial. Do the math. That is the detail

 

Its no cop out. People buy new cars in NZ. They dont buy 40000 cars for 80000 that will never recoup that premium. 8k wont help that. Comment on the gaps I raised. Its simple, basic math. Buying EV's at NZ prices, with NZ salary, with NZ fuel costs is a bad investment. The feebate wont shift people from an ICE to an EV, it will help those already buying an EV, so for those, there is zero benefit to NZ. Infinitesimal.

 

What will shift people in NZ, are prices that make an EV a cost saver, and affordable. That will happen in due course. 

 

 


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