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frednz

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  #2308239 30-Aug-2019 08:44
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/114335917/first-hint-of-what-mgs-affordable-ev-might-cost-in-new-zealand

 

New EV prices are on the way down, the MG described in the above article and due here soon is estimated to cost $50,000 and with the incentive reduction of $8,000, we now have a NZ-new EV for $42,000.

 

At that price, I would buy a NZ-new EV rather than a petrol vehicle, so things are changing here at last!

 

I've been for a drive in a near new second-hand Nissan Leaf 40 kWh listed as $45,000, so prices of EVs are on the way down, as has been predicted numerous times. So, let's keep up to date when talking about EV "price premiums".

 

 


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tdgeek
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  #2308243 30-Aug-2019 08:53
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frednz:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/114335917/first-hint-of-what-mgs-affordable-ev-might-cost-in-new-zealand

 

New EV prices are on the way down, the MG described in the above article and due here soon is estimated to cost $50,000 and with the incentive reduction of $8,000, we now have a NZ-new EV for $42,000.

 

At that price, I would buy a NZ-new EV rather than a petrol vehicle, so things are changing here at last!

 

I've been for a drive in a near new second-hand Nissan Leaf 40 kWh listed as $45,000, so prices of EVs are on the way down, as has been predicted numerous times. So, let's keep up to date when talking about EV "price premiums".

 

 

 

 

Yep, lets keep that up to date, and lets hope for more reductions.

 

Near new is not New, the Leaf is still $60k last time I looked which was 12 hours ago!  :-) Say the Leaf dropped by 8, add the 8 feebate that's $43,950. Now we are talking.


Obraik
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  #2308264 30-Aug-2019 09:40
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tdgeek:

 

You avoided the key point. Yews, it was 2011. EV's have been available in models and feebated for many years. But as I noted, the price premium is low. If Sweden had no feebate, the price premium is low. Why would Swedes not buy EV's? With no feebate the price is not a lot higher, fuel savings are very worth it. Add the long established feebate in, which makes the premium even lower, and its hard to imagine any use case for an ICE. NA is not the same, so no, its no cop out, its a mere fact. You are paying double here. Even with a base spec car such as a Leaf you pay 52k for a feebated Leaf, if there was an ICE Leaf you pay low 30's. That is why the NZ feebate has already failed. The purpose of a feebate is to get new EV buyers, it cannot do that. It will only give a free holiday to existing EV buyers, those who will buy anyway. 

 

 

Your key point is based on some article from back in 2011 and has no relevance today. Looking at Nissan Sweden's website, the Nissan Leaf is listed as 397,000 krona (NZ$65k - 5k more expensive than it is here) while the Nissan Juke which is often used as an "ICE equivalent" is 157,300 krona (NZ$26k - cheaper than the Juke is sold new here, which starts NZ$15k higher).  This is all beside the point anyway, the point is that EV sales have taken off in Sweden since they added incentives.




tdgeek
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  #2308274 30-Aug-2019 09:53
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

You avoided the key point. Yews, it was 2011. EV's have been available in models and feebated for many years. But as I noted, the price premium is low. If Sweden had no feebate, the price premium is low. Why would Swedes not buy EV's? With no feebate the price is not a lot higher, fuel savings are very worth it. Add the long established feebate in, which makes the premium even lower, and its hard to imagine any use case for an ICE. NA is not the same, so no, its no cop out, its a mere fact. You are paying double here. Even with a base spec car such as a Leaf you pay 52k for a feebated Leaf, if there was an ICE Leaf you pay low 30's. That is why the NZ feebate has already failed. The purpose of a feebate is to get new EV buyers, it cannot do that. It will only give a free holiday to existing EV buyers, those who will buy anyway. 

 

 

Your key point is based on some article from back in 2011 and has no relevance today. Looking at Nissan Sweden's website, the Nissan Leaf is listed as 397,000 krona (NZ$65k - 5k more expensive than it is here) while the Nissan Juke which is often used as an "ICE equivalent" is 157,300 krona (NZ$26k - cheaper than the Juke is sold new here, which starts NZ$15k higher).  This is all beside the point anyway, the point is that EV sales have taken off in Sweden since they added incentives.

 

 

The Juke is not a Leaf equivalent

 

So, since 2011 when EV's had a low price premium over ICE, that had no effect on EV purchasing? Got it.

 

BTW if you are in Sweden you but it there not here (NZ$65k - 5k more expensive than it is here) We already know cars are expensive here, its about Sweden where the premium is low, its not double. But clearly if an EV in NZ is double an ICE that's not issue, $8000 will cover that easily

 

By your reckoning, when the feebate comes in, and we bring in the usual 160,000, obviously the vast majority will be EV's then? Must be...


tdgeek
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  #2308281 30-Aug-2019 10:06
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It just blows me away that you just cannot see the price premium in NZ, and that at todays prices, the feebate will take care of it. And ignore that in 2011 and beyond. Sweden did not ha ve that issue to that extent. EV's sold themselves.

 

If someone emminent in all things worldly, told you a negative comment on EV's they will by default be wrong. Plenty of others here have stated how EV does not stack up

 

But I will wait for the when the new car imports we do, become 80% EV when the magic bullet feebate arrives. Too easy


Obraik
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  #2308296 30-Aug-2019 10:27
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tdgeek:

 

The Juke is not a Leaf equivalent

 

So, since 2011 when EV's had a low price premium over ICE, that had no effect on EV purchasing? Got it.

 

BTW if you are in Sweden you but it there not here (NZ$65k - 5k more expensive than it is here) We already know cars are expensive here, its about Sweden where the premium is low, its not double. But clearly if an EV in NZ is double an ICE that's not issue, $8000 will cover that easily

 

By your reckoning, when the feebate comes in, and we bring in the usual 160,000, obviously the vast majority will be EV's then? Must be...

 

 

I don't think you've understood my reply at all.

 

A Leaf is cheaper in NZ than it is in Sweden.

 

A Juke is cheaper in Sweden than it is in NZ (by a significant amount).

 

Let's go with your favorite, the Kona. In Sweden, the ICE version starts at 164900 krona (NZ$27k converted, Hyundai NZ list it as $31k starting). The Kona EV 64kWH starts at 409900 krona ($66k converted, Hyundai NZ list as starting at $78k). As you can see, there's still a significant in Sweden between an ICE and an EV, yet the incentives has still made a huge increase to the number of EV sales since their introduction.


tdgeek
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  #2308307 30-Aug-2019 10:41
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

The Juke is not a Leaf equivalent

 

So, since 2011 when EV's had a low price premium over ICE, that had no effect on EV purchasing? Got it.

 

BTW if you are in Sweden you but it there not here (NZ$65k - 5k more expensive than it is here) We already know cars are expensive here, its about Sweden where the premium is low, its not double. But clearly if an EV in NZ is double an ICE that's not issue, $8000 will cover that easily

 

By your reckoning, when the feebate comes in, and we bring in the usual 160,000, obviously the vast majority will be EV's then? Must be...

 

 

I don't think you've understood my reply at all.

 

A Leaf is cheaper in NZ than it is in Sweden.

 

A Juke is cheaper in Sweden than it is in NZ (by a significant amount).

 

Let's go with your favorite, the Kona. In Sweden, the ICE version starts at 164900 krona (NZ$27k converted, Hyundai NZ list it as $31k starting). The Kona EV 64kWH starts at 409900 krona ($66k converted, Hyundai NZ list as starting at $78k). As you can see, there's still a significant in Sweden between an ICE and an EV, yet the incentives has still made a huge increase to the number of EV sales since their introduction.

 

 

Ok. You mention starting. the Kona (yes my favourite) is 40k here, you say its 31k starting. So where does the 40k come from that all of us have been yakking about? I would assume that the NZ EV Kona at 80k is the general model, nice extras, etc. The ICE NZ Kona at 31k is the base model, low on extras. But the EV version does not have a base model. So you are talking say 40k vs 80k here broadly. Sweden say 35k vs 66k

 

Why was it that in 2011, that in Sweden, the premium was stated in that article (not by me) to be low. Now its higher, why is that? Are your figures including ICE penalties and EV subsidies?




Obraik
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  #2308324 30-Aug-2019 11:06
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tdgeek:

 

Ok. You mention starting. the Kona (yes my favourite) is 40k here, you say its 31k starting. So where does the 40k come from that all of us have been yakking about? I would assume that the NZ EV Kona at 80k is the general model, nice extras, etc. The ICE NZ Kona at 31k is the base model, low on extras. But the EV version does not have a base model. So you are talking say 40k vs 80k here broadly. Sweden say 35k vs 66k

 

Why was it that in 2011, that in Sweden, the premium was stated in that article (not by me) to be low. Now its higher, why is that? Are your figures including ICE penalties and EV subsidies?

 

 

I'm just going by what Hyundai have on their website

 

Do you now see that New Zealand isn't some special snow flake where EV prices are much higher than ICE equivalents vs other countries in the world? 


tdgeek
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  #2308381 30-Aug-2019 11:23
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Ok. You mention starting. the Kona (yes my favourite) is 40k here, you say its 31k starting. So where does the 40k come from that all of us have been yakking about? I would assume that the NZ EV Kona at 80k is the general model, nice extras, etc. The ICE NZ Kona at 31k is the base model, low on extras. But the EV version does not have a base model. So you are talking say 40k vs 80k here broadly. Sweden say 35k vs 66k

 

Why was it that in 2011, that in Sweden, the premium was stated in that article (not by me) to be low. Now its higher, why is that? Are your figures including ICE penalties and EV subsidies?

 

 

I'm just going by what Hyundai have on their website

 

Do you now see that New Zealand isn't some special snow flake where EV prices are much higher than ICE equivalents vs other countries in the world? 

 

 

Snowflake? Come on

 

Why was it that in 2011, that in Sweden, the premium was stated in that article (not by me) to be low. Now its higher, why is that? Are your figures including ICE penalties and EV subsidies?

 

There is something missing here. Lets say a standard not bad car is 40k. Lets say I can afford a new 40k car, that means I cannot afford the same car as an EV, as the 8k doesnt go near covering it. Said many time here by others. So, the feebate fails

 

Example 2. I can afford an 80k Kona. Do you think I will pay 72k for a car that's the same as the 40k Kona????  Ide rather buy two 40k Konas, or buy one throw 32k in shares and buy gas off that forever. Its exactly like many spending 30k on solar, and when the solar is worn out and failing , we finally recovered the cost of it

 

Example 3. I cant afford an EV, so no, Im not going to buy a too old, too small EV at the price I can afford, just so I can join the EV market. Given this has been a suggestion before

 

Something is missing here, as the reason for a subsidy is to get people who cannot manage the EV price , into that EV. The 8k doesnt do that.

 

In my other post about a Nissan Note, I see that car is or was the top seller in Japan. Leaf was No. 35. Reason is its a not bad car, its EV, but as it has no massive battery pack, its a regular car price, so its popular. I see hybrids taking over here, no feebate required, although I assume they may have one


Obraik
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  #2308430 30-Aug-2019 12:43
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tdgeek:

 

Snowflake? Come on

 

Why was it that in 2011, that in Sweden, the premium was stated in that article (not by me) to be low. Now its higher, why is that? Are your figures including ICE penalties and EV subsidies?

 

There is something missing here. Lets say a standard not bad car is 40k. Lets say I can afford a new 40k car, that means I cannot afford the same car as an EV, as the 8k doesnt go near covering it. Said many time here by others. So, the feebate fails

 

Example 2. I can afford an 80k Kona. Do you think I will pay 72k for a car that's the same as the 40k Kona????  Ide rather buy two 40k Konas, or buy one throw 32k in shares and buy gas off that forever. Its exactly like many spending 30k on solar, and when the solar is worn out and failing , we finally recovered the cost of it

 

Example 3. I cant afford an EV, so no, Im not going to buy a too old, too small EV at the price I can afford, just so I can join the EV market. Given this has been a suggestion before

 

Something is missing here, as the reason for a subsidy is to get people who cannot manage the EV price , into that EV. The 8k doesnt do that.

 

In my other post about a Nissan Note, I see that car is or was the top seller in Japan. Leaf was No. 35. Reason is its a not bad car, its EV, but as it has no massive battery pack, its a regular car price, so its popular. I see hybrids taking over here, no feebate required, although I assume they may have one

 

 

I have no idea why that article you linked to said what it said in 2011. I can only assume since it was a quote from Nissan that it was marketing spin since that's when the Leaf was first introduced and they don't say what car they're comparing it to.  The prices I've posted are all before any incentives or emission penalties for both NZ and Sweden. NZ and Sweden have similar maximum subsidy amounts however Sweden is a bit more bold with the penalty and you pay the penalty every year for three years if you buy an ICE.

 

Yes, the point of EV subsidies is to bring an EV equivalent to your price point or below it.  If one were buying a BMW 3 series one might be more inclined to go for the equivalent Tesla Model 3 which are both currently about the same price, but the Tesla will soon be $8k cheaper with cheaper running costs.  It's no great secret that this doesn't apply to all price points currently as there are obviously no $40k EVs yet. However, as we see in other countries, bringing that cost down even by $8k can be enough to make people stretch their budget to get into an EV


tdgeek
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  #2308439 30-Aug-2019 12:58
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Obraik:

 

 

 

I have no idea why that article you linked to said what it said in 2011. I can only assume since it was a quote from Nissan that it was marketing spin since that's when the Leaf was first introduced and they don't say what car they're comparing it to.  The prices I've posted are all before any incentives or emission penalties for both NZ and Sweden. NZ and Sweden have similar maximum subsidy amounts however Sweden is a bit more bold with the penalty and you pay the penalty every year for three years if you buy an ICE.

 

Yes, the point of EV subsidies is to bring an EV equivalent to your price point or below it.  If one were buying a BMW 3 series one might be more inclined to go for the equivalent Tesla Model 3 which are both currently about the same price, but the Tesla will soon be $8k cheaper with cheaper running costs.  It's no great secret that this doesn't apply to all price points currently as there are obviously no $40k EVs yet. However, as we see in other countries, bringing that cost down even by $8k can be enough to make people stretch their budget to get into an EV

 

 

We will see. I have no issue with it either way. Like any buyer I will buy what I see as value. But my opinion, and its just an opinion, not an anti EV stance, but I cannot see the feebate doing anything to emissions here. Which is what Treasury say. The prices are too high and the subsidy too low to create a sale. There will be very very few where the 8k gets them over the line. The vast majority of subsidies will be paid to buyers who where buying anyway. And when you look at overseas sales and sales here post 2021, there is no way to say that we increased sales by x units and it was all because of the feebate, because no one will be getting stats on would you have bought if there was no feebate. As we all know, there are are many good reasons to buy an EV. If there was no feebate overseas would there be hardly any sales?


Obraik
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  #2308443 30-Aug-2019 13:10
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tdgeek:

 

We will see. I have no issue with it either way. Like any buyer I will buy what I see as value. But my opinion, and its just an opinion, not an anti EV stance, but I cannot see the feebate doing anything to emissions here. Which is what Treasury say. The prices are too high and the subsidy too low to create a sale. There will be very very few where the 8k gets them over the line. The vast majority of subsidies will be paid to buyers who where buying anyway. And when you look at overseas sales and sales here post 2021, there is no way to say that we increased sales by x units and it was all because of the feebate, because no one will be getting stats on would you have bought if there was no feebate. As we all know, there are are many good reasons to buy an EV. If there was no feebate overseas would there be hardly any sales?

 

 

The point I've been trying to show you is that the price premium isn't unique to NZ. The premium is around the same in all markets.

 

It's pretty easy to see if the feebate had an impact or not. In the case of Sweden, in 6 months the sales of EVs increased by 250%. If there's an increase in sales after the introduction of a feebate then it's a safe assumption it was due to the feebate.


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