Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 
frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek


  #2215284 11-Apr-2019 21:16
Send private message

Delphinus:

 

frednz:

 

Delphinus:
frednz: So, if you can afford to own two vehicles, I would go for one petrol vehicle and the 455km range Niro EV
You're not seriously saying that 455km range requires a second vehicle? You would need more food/comfort/rest breaks than an EV with a 455kms range requires charging.

 

I think you need to keep in mind that, when you're away from home and using fast chargers, you're going to be charging up to 80% which gives a range of 364km. Now, build into that a safety margin of say at least 30km, then your "workable" range is reduced to 334 km. But that's pretty good I agree provided that there are plenty of fast chargers available that are unoccupied and compatible with your vehicle and also in working condition!

 

OK, well how about the 289km model, 80% of that is 231km less the safety margin of 30km, which gives a workable range of around 200km. Would you be happy to own this as your sole car?

 

And of course, the 289km and 455km ranges are the "best" ranges you can expect, so I'm not sure you can expect to achieve these optimum ranges all the time, particularly in Winter when you need to heat the vehicle etc. etc.

 

 

You'd leave home on 100% charge, so that's 455kms. Then stop for a break/food somewhere and top-up to 80%. If you timed that when you got to 5% that's after you've done 430kms. 80% battery so range is back up 364km. You can now do 794kms with a single charge in the middle. That's 100kms more than Dunedin to Picton (697kms), or Auckland to Wellington (644km). I'm not sure I'd be keen to do that much driving (9 hours) and only stop once. 

 

And yes I'd be happy to drive a 298km model as my sole car. That's 500kms with a charge in the middle while stopping for food. Again I'd be stopping more than that anyway for rests. 

 

 

That all sounds good in theory, but I would also consider how far apart the chargers are, what the weather's like and how much open road 100 km per hour driving you need to do so that you don't annoy people.

 

For example, from Auckland to Wellington, I've seen reports from one Kona 64 kWh owner who decided it would be prudent to do the first top-up at Turangi and a second charge at Otaki. This allows for a relaxed trip and use of the heater, air conditioning etc when needed.

 

Not everyone likes to run very low on charge (or on petrol) when doing a long trip, so although it's theoretically possible to travel the 644km from Auckland to Wellington and only top-up once, a more prudent driver will top-up more often so that the trip remains pleasant and free from range anxiety!

 

With my petrol car, I always fill up when fuel gets down to about a quarter of a tank, but I realise that other people may only fill-up when the car has almost run out of petrol.


Affiliate link
 
 
 

Affiliate link: Free kids accounts - trade shares and funds (NZ, US) with Sharesies.
Delphinus
594 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2215290 11-Apr-2019 21:34
Send private message

frednz:

 

That all sounds good in theory, but I would also consider how far apart the chargers are, what the weather's like and how much open road 100 km per hour driving you need to do so that you don't annoy people.

 

 

How far apart? Not very far apart: https://charge.net.nz/map/

 

You have about 15 chargers to choose from along your AKL > WLG route. Is that enough for you?

frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek


  #2216073 12-Apr-2019 21:48
Send private message

Delphinus:
frednz:

 

That all sounds good in theory, but I would also consider how far apart the chargers are, what the weather's like and how much open road 100 km per hour driving you need to do so that you don't annoy people.

 

How far apart? Not very far apart: https://charge.net.nz/map/ You have about 15 chargers to choose from along your AKL > WLG route. Is that enough for you?

 

The more chargers there are, instead of charging up just once or twice on a long journey, some EV owners have suggested to me that stopping more frequently and charging up for 15 minutes at a time rather than for 60-75 minutes, is better for the battery in that it's less likely to overheat on hot days and you don't have to wait around for so long.

 

Also, if you wait until the very last minute to charge up and the fast charger is occupied or down for some reason, then you can be in trouble. So, I would always charge up well before the battery is about to turtle!

 

 




KiwiME
199 posts

Master Geek


  #2216400 13-Apr-2019 11:34
Send private message

Even without NAV the e-Niro has LED headlights and is good value compared with the base Kona that only has cloth seats.  I would have picked the Kona anyway because I want the shorter length but the base's halogen headlights really do suck if you drive a lot at night. 

 

It's good to plan your charging stops, even with a 64kWh battery.  I don't drive nearly as much as other Kona owners do, but when I carefully planned my first trip out of Hawkes Bay, Napier-Hamilton-Napier, I intended to top-up 25% in Taupo and/or Cambridge because I thought the free chargers in Hamilton would be too busy.  In practice, I was wrong on every count:  I couldn't be bothered with Taupo because the charger is located too far away from the town, and for similarly-illogical reasons ended up going all the way to Hamilton on the smooth and convenient bypass.  I visited two Countdown chargers in central Hamilton, both had two DC units fully available, and had a free one-hour session on each of the two days while picking up some food, which covered the return trip and ended up overall being a very positive experience.

 

Note these particular rapid chargers are 25kW (Delta Electronics) which will happily continue all the way to 100%, unlike the 50kW ABB units that in my limited experience stop at 90%.  The charge rate does drop to 11 kW after 92% but it still got to 100% in another 10 minutes.  I like the 25KW units because they are a good compromise between a practical charge rate and not beating the crap out of your battery, plus they are small and apparently a fraction of the purchase price of the 50kW units.

 

 

 

With EVs in NZ in general, I'm getting really concerned about running costs getting out of hand.  I've noted the more outspoken owners often either have PV with significant unmentioned capital costs, or electricity deals unobtainable outside of the main centres and quote unrealistically-low charging costs, thinking that helps 'the cause.'  It doesn't ... it just sets unrealistic expectations.  RUCs are only on-hold and there is no evidence that they won't be applied as promised.   Without significant subsidies I think the EV momentum will soon be lost.

 

I live in a flat, park in a leased space and have to charge on the road, however there is a public charger nearby and by extraordinary luck it doesn't have a time component cost like most do in NZ (and abroad).

 

So, my 'at-home' charging costs per 100 km are $0.40 x 15.2 kWh/100km =  $6.08 and luckily I can use AC if I wish.  The owner's manual for the Kona clearly states in two places to use AC charging over DC if practical to maintain the health of the battery and I have no basis not to follow that advice.

 

If RUCs are applied that adds $6.80, total $12.88, exactly what my VW Polo cost for petrol (6.0 l/100km, $2.17/l).  Comprehensive insurance for the EV costs exactly twice as much.  Servicing (required for the battery warranty) is $194 the first and third year, $263 the second year, the Polo roughly $400 a year.

 

If I had to charge locally in a time + electricity zone I have two problems, the first being that charging on AC is totally impractical (if Type 2 was even fitted) and on DC the 'time' part of the cost is at least as much as the electricity cost, making it more expensive than a petrol car. On a 25kW DC unit for example at $0.25 /min + $0.15/unit it would cost me $18.30 to deliver 22kW (takes 1 hr).  Add RUCs and you have $25.10 per 100km, nearly twice what my Polo cost.

 

If I could charge at home it would cost me $0.27 x 15.2 kWh/100km = $4.10, throw in RUCs and we have $10.90, about 83% of my Polo's petrol cost.

 

 

 

To recap, 5 years of running expenses at 15,000 km/yr: 'fuel', RUCs for the EV, servicing and comprehensive insurance:

 

Polo (cost $31k new) $14,500

 

Kona (cost $75k new) charging at 0.40/unit is $16,268

 

Kona charging at 0.25/min+0.15/unit is $25,433

 

Kona charging at home, 0.27/unit is $14,786


afe66
2924 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2216431 13-Apr-2019 12:36
Send private message

Not having off street parking is a predictable extra cost that you cant get round.

Own driveway means 20 cents or less per kWH and no time charge.

Changing with would require local government to possibly allow you to run a power source to street outside you house but then people would consider that spot theirs and would get angry if someone else parked there.

Once external outfits supply power even at slow rates they will all want a cut and costs go up.

alasta
5744 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2216477 13-Apr-2019 13:22
Send private message

KiwiME:

 

To recap, 5 years of running expenses at 15,000 km/yr: 'fuel', RUCs for the EV, servicing and comprehensive insurance:

 

Polo (cost $31k new) $14,500

 

Kona (cost $75k new) charging at 0.40/unit is $16,268

 

Kona charging at 0.25/min+0.15/unit is $25,433

 

Kona charging at home, 0.27/unit is $14,786

 

 

Thanks for sharing those cost calculations. I find them really interesting because I share your view that it is very risky to buy an EV on the assumption that you will never incur RUC. 

 

If I recall correctly the price difference between a Kona EV vs Kona Petrol is about $35k and I would expect at least a 5% return on that capex. So, the EV would need to be $1750 a year cheaper than its petrol counterpart to be viable. As someone who does well under 10,000km a year that's a pretty hard sell.

 

In terms of minimising my carbon footprint, for now I think I'll just stick to limiting my vehicle use and air travel!


KiwiME
199 posts

Master Geek


  #2216768 14-Apr-2019 09:10
Send private message

alasta:In terms of minimising my carbon footprint, for now I think I'll just stick to limiting my vehicle use and air travel!

 

 

I think that's a sensible strategy, at least until our government presents a long term plan.  In fact having an eBike for the last three years I had managed to wean myself off local driving completely, so I've had to reacquaint myself with driving more.  I traded-in a perfect good car, buying the EV to acquaint myself with the technology and am learning in leaps and bounds.

 

 

 

As a note, the electricity consumption I used for the Kona (15.2 kWh/100 km) is the government rating, which I believe is accurate enough as regards charging power per distance.  EV owners will commonly quote 'consumption' from the dash reading, which is only energy from the battery, failing to take into account charger and battery losses.  Charger efficiency is 89% (for the Kona's on-board unit) to 94% for 25 or 50 kW DC units.  Battery losses are unknown and apparently vary considerably with temperature. 




Delphinus
594 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2216971 14-Apr-2019 15:30
Send private message

KiwiME:

 

To recap, 5 years of running expenses at 15,000 km/yr: 'fuel', RUCs for the EV, servicing and comprehensive insurance:

 

Polo (cost $31k new) $14,500

 

Kona (cost $75k new) charging at 0.40/unit is $16,268

 

Kona charging at 0.25/min+0.15/unit is $25,433

 

Kona charging at home, 0.27/unit is $14,786

 

 

And if govt extended the no RUC for another 5 years, and you charged at home overnight overnight on the Merdian EV Plan (14c/kWh LU), that would be $1365 of power ($273 per year). 

 

Plus insurance and maintenance (not sure what calculations you've used over the 5 years). I'm going with $1055 insurance (quick online quote) and ~1000 maintenance over 5 years. 

 

Total cost for 5 years and 15,000kms = $11,640.


frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek


  #2247384 28-May-2019 21:57
Send private message

There a few Kia Niro EVs that appear to be available for immediate delivery:

 

https://trademe.nz/motors/cars/kia/niro/search?sort_order=motorspricedesc

 

On the above page there are five 64 kWh EX455 Niros (455km range) advertised at $73,990, some of which may be demos.

 

There are three 39 kWh EX289 Niros (289 km range) selling for $67,990 and 1 EX289 for $64,990.

 

The full new price of the EX455 is $73,990 and for the EX289 it's $67,990.

 

So, all but one of the EVs above are listed at their full retail price.

 

I phoned a couple of dealers and found that the EX289 models are available for immediate delivery. Perhaps this is because they haven't been as popular as expected and that the far greater range EX455 is seen by most buyers to be well worth the extra $6,000. However, if you want a good 289km EV straight away, those listed are a good opportunity.

 

Also, with the similar range Nissan Leaf being sold NZ-new soon at $60,000, the $68,000 price tag for the EX289 may now be a bit too high? It's interesting that one dealer has discounted an EX289 by $3,000, so this EV appears to be a good buy. In fact, the dealer specifically states that: "THIS VEHICLE IS NOW ON THE MARKET.................IMMEDIATE DELIVERY." However it's a bit unusual that this vehicle has "EV455" printed on it when it's advertised as an EX289!

 

But, it seems that the EX455 models which are listed for sale, may not be immediately available and that you may have to wait for several weeks to get delivery of a brand new EV.

 

 

 

 


KiwiME
199 posts

Master Geek


  #2247744 29-May-2019 14:48
Send private message

Delphinus:

 

And if govt extended the no RUC for another 5 years, and you charged at home overnight overnight on the Merdian EV Plan (14c/kWh LU), that would be $1365 of power ($273 per year). 

 

Plus insurance and maintenance (not sure what calculations you've used over the 5 years). I'm going with $1055 insurance (quick online quote) and ~1000 maintenance over 5 years. 

 

Total cost for 5 years and 15,000kms = $11,640.

 

 

I've not seen any evidence that the govt will extent the RUC exemption for 5 more years ... perhaps something will be announced Thursday.  It is already legislated to expire 31 Dec 2021 so that's the information I have to use.

 

Regarding the power plans, in HB the low-user offer is 36.56 day / 19.32 night + 30.66 daily rate.  We don't get the low night rates found in the main centres and you can see they just jack-up the day rate to cover it.

 

My insurance is 1100 a year for the Kona EV.  The spreadsheet is in the Kona EV thread.

 

 


tripper1000
1475 posts

Uber Geek


  #2248369 30-May-2019 11:59
Send private message

KiwiME:

 

To recap, 5 years of running expenses at 15,000 km/yr: 'fuel', RUCs for the EV, servicing and comprehensive insurance:

 

Polo (cost $31k new) $14,500

 

Kona (cost $75k new) charging at 0.40/unit is $16,268

 

Kona charging at 0.25/min+0.15/unit is $25,433

 

Kona charging at home, 0.27/unit is $14,786 

 

Your fundamental points are true for a current EV.

 

However EV's are about to tumble in price over the next few years as the (expensive) lithium batters are set to fall in price fairly sharply (google lithium battery price trends), due to mass manufacturer etc and are set to become cheaper than ICE shortly. As EV's rise in normality (just like smart phones rose in normality), the "at-home" charging situation is likely to improve for rented/leased premises as tenant's come to expect it (similar to expecting fibre is already/can easily be installed or that aircraft and busses will have USB to charge your smart phone) and similarly street-side charging is likely to improve (already something councils such as Wellington are starting to consider).

 

If you were to repeat your analysis in a couple of years time the reduced capital costs could make quite a difference.

 

Other future/unpredictable factors to think about would be petrol going up due to carbon taxes, oil doing down due to drops in demand, RUC going up to cover higher road safety expectations, electricity going up because generation & distribution isn't keeping up with rises in demand not to mention autonomous Uber style cars usurping the current model for private car ownership making the whole discussion moot.


1 | 2 
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





News and reviews »

GoTo Launches IT Helpdesk Functionality Within GoTo Connect
Posted 18-Aug-2022 16:55


HP on Track With Recycling Program
Posted 18-Aug-2022 16:51


Belkin Screenforce Tempered Glass Screen Protector and Bumper - Apple Watch
Posted 15-Aug-2022 17:20


Samsung Introducing Galaxy Z Flip4 and Galaxy Z Fold4
Posted 11-Aug-2022 01:00


Samsung Unveils Health Innovations with Galaxy Watch5 and Galaxy Watch5 Pro
Posted 11-Aug-2022 01:00


Google Bringing First Cloud Region to Aotearoa New Zealand
Posted 10-Aug-2022 08:51


ANZ To Move to FIS Modern Banking Platform
Posted 10-Aug-2022 08:28


GoPro Hero10 Black Review
Posted 8-Aug-2022 17:41


Amazon to Acquire iRobot
Posted 6-Aug-2022 11:41


Samsung x LIFE Picture Collection Brings Iconic Moments in History to The Frame
Posted 4-Aug-2022 17:04


Norton Consumer Cyber Safety Pulse Report: Phishing for New Bait on Social Media
Posted 4-Aug-2022 16:50


Microsoft Announces New Solutions for Threat Intelligence and Attack Surface Management
Posted 3-Aug-2022 21:54


Seagate Addresses Hyperscale Workloads with Enterprise-Class Nytro SSDs
Posted 3-Aug-2022 21:50


Visa Launching Eco-friendly Payment Solutions in New Zealand
Posted 3-Aug-2022 21:48


NCR Delivers Services to Run Bank of New Zealand ATM Network
Posted 30-Jul-2022 11:06









Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.







GoodSync is the easiest file sync and backup for Windows and Mac