Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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#2260027 18-Jun-2019 10:16

mclean:

tdgeek: Crossover point? I could buy a Leaf or a sporty and hot 370Z for the same price, get back to me on the crossover.

A Leaf vs a 370Z? Mmm, that's not quite a crossover point for me.

Yes, the premium is hefty. But then again I remember when CD-RW drives were $2500 and blanks $5 each

The R+D needs to come off. But if the car manufacturers cannot produce them in numbers,leave the R+D on, they will still sell. When production is higher the R+D can be reduced (as more sales to spread it around) so R+D recovery is still secure, and sales and profits will grow. If what comes to market sells and doesnt gather cobwebs in the showroom, its not time yet for any subsidies.

frankv

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#2260037 18-Jun-2019 10:25

tdgeek:

frankv:

tdgeek:

Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol.

I'm curious where you get this figure... are you talking about energy/kg perhaps? But that's very misleading, because you also need to consider volume. To get the volume down to something reasonable, you need to store it at very high pressures, and to get high pressure you need very strong containers, and for that you need heavy structures.

use it in your car, replacing the LPG you currently use. It is more intensive than petrol, so unlike LPG which uses more for the same energy, H2 is more potent so uses less. You can also use it in an EV. Burn this clean fuel to charge a small EV battery

Right. But how do you store it in your car? Obviously you aren't going to tow around a balloon full of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure. In fact, you need 10,000psi to store 8kg of hydrogen, to get the same range as one tank of petrol. And 10,000psi means strong which means heavy and bulky tanks.

The problem is cost to produce it from renewables using electrolysis. That is being worked on to make it quicker and cheaper, which Ive already explained a few times, how.

That's just one problem. Another problem is distributing it around the country, but I guess you could build pipelines and retail sites. Another problem is storing it in a car, as above. Another problem is that an ICE is at best 46% efficient, so probably a fuel cell is better for converting hydrogen back to electricity. Another problem is that the energy losses in distributing electricity and storing it in LiPo car batteries are a *lot* less than in converting to hydrogen, transporting that, then converting back again.

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#2260042 18-Jun-2019 10:30

tdgeek:

mclean:

tdgeek: Crossover point? I could buy a Leaf or a sporty and hot 370Z for the same price, get back to me on the crossover.

A Leaf vs a 370Z? Mmm, that's not quite a crossover point for me.

Yes, the premium is hefty.

If there's a premium it's not a crossover. A crossover is when you get more-or-less the same thing for more-or-less the same price. When a new Leaf costs the same as a new Suzuki Swift, that's crossover.

tdgeek

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#2260052 18-Jun-2019 10:35

frankv:

tdgeek:

mclean:

tdgeek: Crossover point? I could buy a Leaf or a sporty and hot 370Z for the same price, get back to me on the crossover.

A Leaf vs a 370Z? Mmm, that's not quite a crossover point for me.

Yes, the premium is hefty.

If there's a premium it's not a crossover. A crossover is when you get more-or-less the same thing for more-or-less the same price. When a new Leaf costs the same as a new Suzuki Swift, that's crossover.

I never said crossover. I implied it wasnt

tdgeek

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#2260102 18-Jun-2019 10:48

frankv:

Right. But how do you store it in your car? Obviously you aren't going to tow around a balloon full of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure. In fact, you need 10,000psi to store 8kg of hydrogen, to get the same range as one tank of petrol. And 10,000psi means strong which means heavy and bulky tanks.

That's just one problem. Another problem is distributing it around the country, but I guess you could build pipelines and retail sites. Another problem is storing it in a car, as above. Another problem is that an ICE is at best 46% efficient, so probably a fuel cell is better for converting hydrogen back to electricity. Another problem is that the energy losses in distributing electricity and storing it in LiPo car batteries are a *lot* less than in converting to hydrogen, transporting that, then converting back again.

5000 psi will do. Why don't you check the hydrogen vehicles that currently exist? You could also check why the UK wants to use H2 to replace Natural Gas. You could also ask the gas station in Swindon why they are manufacturing H2 on site as part of one of many projects going on with H2 (gas). A poster here gave a link to a science website that bagged Hydrogen. Think it was Aug 2018. June 2019, it supports it.

Im not sure if you know more than all of these people or you dont want H2 gas as you want an EV instead, but a good use of H2 is to use it as a fuel cell to charge a small EV battery in an EV car. Less batteries = avoiding 20 tonnes on CO2 to make them.

But I'm just the messenger , none of these are my ideas, but its nuce to see the science being worked on for the greater good

Obraik

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#2260115 18-Jun-2019 11:21

tdgeek:

5000 psi will do. Why don't you check the hydrogen vehicles that currently exist? You could also check why the UK wants to use H2 to replace Natural Gas. You could also ask the gas station in Swindon why they are manufacturing H2 on site as part of one of many projects going on with H2 (gas). A poster here gave a link to a science website that bagged Hydrogen. Think it was Aug 2018. June 2019, it supports it.

Im not sure if you know more than all of these people or you dont want H2 gas as you want an EV instead, but a good use of H2 is to use it as a fuel cell to charge a small EV battery in an EV car. Less batteries = avoiding 20 tonnes on CO2 to make them.

But I'm just the messenger , none of these are my ideas, but its nuce to see the science being worked on for the greater good

What works for the UK doesn't necessarily work for NZ. We have less people, less density and less electricity generation compared to the UK. The UK is mostly looking at Hydrogen as a replacement for LPG where it's used for heating large buildings. When it comes to vehicles they're investing more in EV - as recent as last week they announced new investment into EVs

As discussed earlier, the 20 tonne of emissions for batteries is fiction.

tdgeek

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#2260162 18-Jun-2019 12:10

Obraik:

tdgeek:

5000 psi will do. Why don't you check the hydrogen vehicles that currently exist? You could also check why the UK wants to use H2 to replace Natural Gas. You could also ask the gas station in Swindon why they are manufacturing H2 on site as part of one of many projects going on with H2 (gas). A poster here gave a link to a science website that bagged Hydrogen. Think it was Aug 2018. June 2019, it supports it.

Im not sure if you know more than all of these people or you dont want H2 gas as you want an EV instead, but a good use of H2 is to use it as a fuel cell to charge a small EV battery in an EV car. Less batteries = avoiding 20 tonnes on CO2 to make them.

But I'm just the messenger , none of these are my ideas, but its nuce to see the science being worked on for the greater good

What works for the UK doesn't necessarily work for NZ. We have less people, less density and less electricity generation compared to the UK. The UK is mostly looking at Hydrogen as a replacement for LPG where it's used for heating large buildings. When it comes to vehicles they're investing more in EV - as recent as last week they announced new investment into EVs

As discussed earlier, the 20 tonne of emissions for batteries is fiction.

Making stuff up. You said large buildings. Its natural gas usage. There is a test estate, i.e. housing. The point is that the development of Hydrogen is being improved to make it useable for general green energy uses. But if you are scared it will make EV less cool, then there you go. And I have no idea why you inserted that there is new investment in EV's? No idea at all. Unless you are obsessed with them? I applaud any new investments in any green energy. Thats where we differ

frankv

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#2260171 18-Jun-2019 12:23

tdgeek:

Im not sure if you know more than all of these people or you dont want H2 gas as you want an EV instead, but a good use of H2 is to use it as a fuel cell to charge a small EV battery in an EV car. Less batteries = avoiding 20 tonnes on CO2 to make them.

I don't particularly want an H2 or battery-powered car. I do like the idea of green transport fuels. But you have to be realistic. And, for the reasons I gave, I see batteries rather than H2 as a green car fuel. Hopefully one day H2 will be even greener than batteries. But probably it won't.

The H2 plant in the UK you linked to, BTW, makes it from fossil fuels. https://www.exxonmobil.co.uk/en-gb/company/uk-operations/refining-and-marketing/fawley-refinery

Obraik

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#2260176 18-Jun-2019 12:40

tdgeek:

Making stuff up. You said large buildings. Its natural gas usage. There is a test estate, i.e. housing. The point is that the development of Hydrogen is being improved to make it useable for general green energy uses. But if you are scared it will make EV less cool, then there you go. And I have no idea why you inserted that there is new investment in EV's? No idea at all. Unless you are obsessed with them? I applaud any new investments in any green energy. Thats where we differ

Why did I bring up the investment in EVs? Because you're going on about how the UK is investing in Hydrogen but when it comes to vehicles, which this thread is about, they're investing more into EVs. Their hydrogen investment is more about replacing LPG for heating, not vehicles, which again, this thread is about.

tdgeek

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#2260178 18-Jun-2019 12:46

frankv:

tdgeek:

Im not sure if you know more than all of these people or you dont want H2 gas as you want an EV instead, but a good use of H2 is to use it as a fuel cell to charge a small EV battery in an EV car. Less batteries = avoiding 20 tonnes on CO2 to make them.

I don't particularly want an H2 or battery-powered car. I do like the idea of green transport fuels. But you have to be realistic. And, for the reasons I gave, I see batteries rather than H2 as a green car fuel. Hopefully one day H2 will be even greener than batteries. But probably it won't.

The H2 plant in the UK you linked to, BTW, makes it from fossil fuels. https://www.exxonmobil.co.uk/en-gb/company/uk-operations/refining-and-marketing/fawley-refinery

Most if not all current H2 is FF. Most of it is general production for ammonia, metal, and various commercial uses. The various projects are testing those waters. The point is its seen as a true green energy, you can make it green and you can burn it green. That makes it the perfect fuel when you factor in that its plentiful as a raw material. To make it 100% green which EV is not, its too expensive. If they can improve that, its a great energy source. It doesnt matter if its in transport, or heating or cooking. It does work in all three. Cost is the issue. Climate Change is the issue. I dont really care what we end up using H2 for as long as all FF is replaced. Its in cars now, California, and the UK (testing)

We need all the help we can get. If H2 was viable cost wise in cars, then that will compete with EV, which is a good thing. IIRC there is talk of sequestering carbon in the Hydrogen process. Carbon fibre, carbon bricks for construction? Who knows. But if we put our heads in the sand and see EV's as the holy grails , that's a mistake

tdgeek

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#2260181 18-Jun-2019 12:49

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Making stuff up. You said large buildings. Its natural gas usage. There is a test estate, i.e. housing. The point is that the development of Hydrogen is being improved to make it useable for general green energy uses. But if you are scared it will make EV less cool, then there you go. And I have no idea why you inserted that there is new investment in EV's? No idea at all. Unless you are obsessed with them? I applaud any new investments in any green energy. Thats where we differ

Why did I bring up the investment in EVs? Because you're going on about how the UK is investing in Hydrogen but when it comes to vehicles, which this thread is about, they're investing more into EVs. Their hydrogen investment is more about replacing LPG for heating, not vehicles, which again, this thread is about.

Due to bias, this thread is about hating Hydrogen as it "might" affect the EV. H2 is a possibility for cars. There are hydrogen cars in commercial and consumer use right now, so its valid in this thread. But the antiness of what would be the greenest energy on Earth is pretty sad

Its about Climate Change, and some of us want that resolved more than others/are realistic

Obraik

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#2260189 18-Jun-2019 13:06

tdgeek:

Due to bias, this thread is about hating Hydrogen as it "might" affect the EV. H2 is a possibility for cars. There are hydrogen cars in commercial and consumer use right now, so its valid in this thread. But the antiness of what would be the greenest energy on Earth is pretty sad

Its about Climate Change, and some of us want that resolved more than others/are realistic

Nothing to do with bias, just pure science and physics ;)

There are barely hydrogen cars in use right now and in one country they're currently off the roads while the safety of the process is investigated. Currently, hydrogen has yet to prove itself as a clean energy source because the only meaningful way to make hydrogen right now is not through green methods. They've been promising that green ways to make hydrogen are coming for the last few decades now and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm not about to believe that it's any closer today.

tdgeek

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#2260193 18-Jun-2019 13:12

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Due to bias, this thread is about hating Hydrogen as it "might" affect the EV. H2 is a possibility for cars. There are hydrogen cars in commercial and consumer use right now, so its valid in this thread. But the antiness of what would be the greenest energy on Earth is pretty sad

Its about Climate Change, and some of us want that resolved more than others/are realistic

Nothing to do with bias, just pure science and physics ;)

There are barely hydrogen cars in use right now and in one country they're currently off the roads while the safety of the process is investigated. Currently, hydrogen has yet to prove itself as a clean energy source because the only meaningful way to make hydrogen right now is not through green methods. They've been promising that green ways to make hydrogen are coming for the last few decades now and it hasn't happened yet, so I'm not about to believe that it's any closer today.

Science? No. Bias. But lets watch those countries and the many projects they are undertaking with hydrogen as you seemingly know more than them.

maxeon

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#2260405 18-Jun-2019 16:42

Toyota has changed plans now - News here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/113549211/toyota-has-done-a-uturn-on-electric-vehicles

tdgeek

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#2260446 18-Jun-2019 18:35

maxeon:

Toyota has changed plans now - News here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/113549211/toyota-has-done-a-uturn-on-electric-vehicles

Yes, saw that today. They favour Hybrids and Hydrogen. Still do, but they now need to hop on the EV bandwagon, and comply with Europe and China emissions. but will, still only build less than 1/5 BEV of its total by 2025, the other just over 80% will be battery assisted cars. So they favour PHEV. There are only about 6600 Hydrogen cars on the roads, most are Toyota. Most in California, some in Japan Europe and Sweden

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