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frankv
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  #2260828 19-Jun-2019 12:16
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tdgeek:

 

I'm saying that I cannot see anything online that states that the energy used to out a litre of petrol at my pump is less than what I get. It may be, it may be similar, it may not be now. Then I am saying that this doesn't matter as our human energy is in fact money. As oil is harder to find, and deeper, and less, that clearly makes it more energy use to obtain, than many many decades ago. Again ,the relationship between energy used and energy obtained is meaningless. We have proven that by continuing to mine oil, no matter what, as we MUST have it. All those inefficiencies get soaked up in oil prices. That makes it work for us.

 

 

I think I understand what you're trying to say.

 

My view is that we increasingly live in an energy economy. The price of any good or service is more and more a reflection of the energy used to produce and deliver it, with less and less being dependent on the man-hours. Raw materials are also increasingly dependent on energy costs of extraction. So, to some extent, the price of something is a reflection of the energy used to make it.

 

That makes it easy to be green, and make green decisions... spend less. :)

 

There are exceptions to this, notably anything which does environmental damage. Historically that damage has just been accepted. Dump trash and waste in the ocean and rivers, destroy the ozone layer, warm the planet, bury nuclear waste, deplete fish supplies, dry up the aquifers. In these cases, someone in the future will pay a lot of the cost. That artificially low price produces a distorted market, and we over-use all the things that in the end damage the environment. Which is why we need carbon taxes and so on to ensure that (a) the price we pay is an accurate reflection of the actual cost, and (b) there are funds available to do the cleanup.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2260829 19-Jun-2019 12:17
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frankv:

 

 

 

You cannot make hydrogen cleanly without electricity.Doing so wastes 30% of the energy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When oil was p!ssing out of the ground in Texas, it was no doubt efficient to scoop it up. Now the reserves are deep, small and expensive, let alone the moiney spent looking for it. Now we try to bleed it from shale. Less and less efficient. But we still do it


Obraik
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  #2260832 19-Jun-2019 12:28
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tdgeek:

 

As oil gets harder to find, it either will or already has cost to much energy to make. So we stop drilling?

 

NZ burns FF to make electricity. If we switch off LPG and add EV we will burn more FF. We cant add hydro forever.

 

Or can we add hydro forever?

 

Solar is no good as we make it when we dont need it. Hydro is no good as if we have enough and we can generator more electricity but we don't need it. So while we have spare water we use it, efficiently or not, we convert that to energy we can use, as we can with solar. It may not be efficient but its free, as we have the hydro and the running costs anyway, so why not run it at max capacity and use that spare power when it is there, so we can then reduce the electricity needed overall, because in peak times we have another gas that can take care of some heat, some cooking and some cars. And if our peak use is a problem, we can stockpile some of that gas that was made with spare water and spare solar to feed a gas power plant if our hydro in winter is now maxed out

 

 

Or we could just store the excess energy from the hydro generation to be used by the grid as we need it, rather than wasting it on an inefficient process.


tdgeek
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  #2260845 19-Jun-2019 12:46
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Obraik:

 

 

 

Or we could just store the excess energy from the hydro generation to be used by the grid as we need it, rather than wasting it on an inefficient process.

 

 

Batteries, acres and acres and acres of batteries. I guess batteries cost nothing, and use few resources and that the few resources :-) are in unlimited supply. And batteries never wear out.  But off course there are new researches that will make it better and better. Easy words to solve anything . H2 has its issues but it is green and it is plentiful, but lets just ignore it, what do scientists know


frankv
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  #2260855 19-Jun-2019 12:58
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tdgeek:

 

As oil gets harder to find, it either will or already has cost to much energy to make. So we stop drilling?

 

 

Yes. When EVs are as cheap as ICEVs, no-one will want to buy an ICEV. At that point, drilling will essentially stop. (IMHO, the Govt's ban on new exploration is more vitue signalling than real... no one will want to explore or drill in 50 years). Conversely, it's only the cost of oil that makes EVs economic. If petrol was 20c/litre, research wouldn't be going into batteries or fuel cells.

 

 

Or can we add hydro forever?

 

 

Of course not. We have limited land, and of course all the best sites have already been used.

 

But there are other potential energy sources... waves and tidal, for example. More geothermal perhaps. But again, with cheap natural gas and coal, there's little economic incentive to develop these.

 

 

So while we have spare water we use it, efficiently or not, we convert that to energy we can use, as we can with solar. It may not be efficient but its free, as we have the hydro and the running costs anyway, so why not run it at max capacity and use that spare power when it is there, so we can then reduce the electricity needed overall, because in peak times we have another gas that can take care of some heat, some cooking and some cars. And if our peak use is a problem, we can stockpile some of that gas that was made with spare water and spare solar to feed a gas power plant if our hydro in winter is now maxed out

 

 

You may not be aware, but we already use a lot of the water in the Waikato River pretty much as efficiently as possible now. Not a lot gets spilled. The river flow is controlled to produce more power at peak times. We can't just run it at full speed all the time, because there isn't enough rainfall in the catchment. Over the winter, Lake Taupo gets lower. Similarly, the Southern lakes don't have enough catchment to run their power station turbines at full speed all the time.

 

Instead of converting excess electricity to hydrogen and losing a lot of the energy, then stockpiling it (Where? How?) we can use batteries to store it as electricity for use at peak times. e.g. Adelaide's Tesla battery, or indeed anyone with a Powerwall in their home.

 

 


Obraik
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  #2260856 19-Jun-2019 13:00
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tdgeek:

 

Batteries, acres and acres and acres of batteries. I guess batteries cost nothing, and use few resources and that the few resources :-) are in unlimited supply. And batteries never wear out.  But off course there are new researches that will make it better and better. Easy words to solve anything . H2 has its issues but it is green and it is plentiful, but lets just ignore it, what do scientists know

 

 

Sure, batteries are one way to store it.  Australia has started doing this.

 

We can also use pumped hydro storage


tdgeek
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  #2260859 19-Jun-2019 13:11
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Im aware of the batteries in Oz. So, the entire globe is hydro and solar. And every country has many, dozens, more than dozens, of Tesla Powerbanks? How many people are in the world, and have batteries? many and many have multiple batterieses. Amd we  have battery farms everywhere on earth. Im glad battery technology is unlimited and lasts forever


Aredwood
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  #2260861 19-Jun-2019 13:19

tdgeek:

Obraik:


 


Or we could just store the excess energy from the hydro generation to be used by the grid as we need it, rather than wasting it on an inefficient process.



Batteries, acres and acres and acres of batteries. I guess batteries cost nothing, and use few resources and that the few resources :-) are in unlimited supply. And batteries never wear out.  But off course there are new researches that will make it better and better. Easy words to solve anything . H2 has its issues but it is green and it is plentiful, but lets just ignore it, what do scientists know



No need to use batteries, as the ripple control system combined with electric hot water cylinders and other fixed loads. Is a far cheaper way of managing peak demand throughout the day.

People keep on ignoring ripple control, and other forms of load Management. As there are not piles of slickly produced YouTube videos about it. And NZ has by far the most extensive load Management system. So looking overseas is not going to tell you anything useful about it.

Long term storage - Raise lake Manapouri. Investigate whether it is feasible to increase the operating range of lake Taupo.

And scientists are not the right people to ask about economics or engineering. Just because something is possible to do in a laboratory, doesn't mean that it is also a good idea to do it on a large scale.





Obraik
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  #2260863 19-Jun-2019 13:33
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Aredwood: 
No need to use batteries, as the ripple control system combined with electric hot water cylinders and other fixed loads. Is a far cheaper way of managing peak demand throughout the day.

People keep on ignoring ripple control, and other forms of load Management. As there are not piles of slickly produced YouTube videos about it. And NZ has by far the most extensive load Management system. So looking overseas is not going to tell you anything useful about it.

Long term storage - Raise lake Manapouri. Investigate whether it is feasible to increase the operating range of lake Taupo.

And scientists are not the right people to ask about economics or engineering. Just because something is possible to do in a laboratory, doesn't mean that it is also a good idea to do it on a large scale.

 

Yeah ripple control is another option.  The only concern I have with it for EVs is what if you've run out of charge earlier in the day and you need to charge it in case of an emergency before the ripple control enables charging?


gzt

gzt
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  #2260875 19-Jun-2019 13:45
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maxeon:

tdgeek:


gzt: Announced last month. In practice this isn't a change of direction for Toyota. Now they have an $8 bet on hydrogen hybrids and a $2 side bet on pure EV. Have to agree at Toyota's size it's big money!


They have been working on hydrogen since 1992. I checked out the three models the three manufacturers have. Typically they have large tanks, say 150 litres. The fuel costs twice as much as petrol, but it goes twice as far. 


If and where there can get renewable manufacturer, its the greenest fuel.


Im surprised they are so hybrid-centric. Most of the models will be PHEV, less than 20% will be BEV



I lost respect on Toyota after watching some of their recent deceptive advertisements. Now they back track and do EV's to get hold on the market. 


https://electrek.co/2019/06/18/toyota-push-science-illiteracy-deceptive-anti-ev-ads/


 


Tldr; This is marketing claiming hybrids as self charging electric. That is all. Really bad marketing move and easily misleading.

tdgeek
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  #2260884 19-Jun-2019 13:55
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Obraik:

 

Aredwood: 
No need to use batteries, as the ripple control system combined with electric hot water cylinders and other fixed loads. Is a far cheaper way of managing peak demand throughout the day.

People keep on ignoring ripple control, and other forms of load Management. As there are not piles of slickly produced YouTube videos about it. And NZ has by far the most extensive load Management system. So looking overseas is not going to tell you anything useful about it.

Long term storage - Raise lake Manapouri. Investigate whether it is feasible to increase the operating range of lake Taupo.

And scientists are not the right people to ask about economics or engineering. Just because something is possible to do in a laboratory, doesn't mean that it is also a good idea to do it on a large scale.

 

Yeah ripple control is another option.  The only concern I have with it for EVs is what if you've run out of charge earlier in the day and you need to charge it in case of an emergency before the ripple control enables charging?

 

 

In ChCh its 7am for a max of 4 hours, you need to plan around that

 

The ultimate goal is all EV's, no emissions. How does 3.8 million light class vehicles x 40kWh per week, how does that work? Yes, some dont do much mileage, others do more. Plus our electric light trains and bus fleets

 

How many cars in the world? X 40kWh per week, how does that work? Oh and those trains and buses

 

 


Obraik
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  #2260900 19-Jun-2019 14:21
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You don't recharge the entire car every night, only what you used. A Model 3 uses about 140wh/km and the typical daily journey for work is about 22km so you'd only need to regain 3.1kwh

DarthKermit
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  #2260915 19-Jun-2019 14:36
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Maybe fusion power will become a reality in our lifetimes. I won't hold my breath though.

tdgeek
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  #2260920 19-Jun-2019 14:40
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Obraik: You don't recharge the entire car every night, only what you used. A Model 3 uses about 140wh/km and the typical daily journey for work is about 22km so you'd only need to regain 3.1kwh

 

You are not reading again, and more denial. I said every week. It doesnt matter if you top up every 5 minutes or every night or once a week, you are using 40kWh per week ( assuming a 40kwH usage for average weekly mileage)that were not used befire x 3.8 million. Where does all this electricity come from, thin  air?

 

Plus the light trains plus the buses, plus the rest of Earth

 

40kWh is about one days power for a house in Winter, and this will be drawn from each EV, x 3.8 million, one day in the future when all cars are EV


shk292
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  #2260923 19-Jun-2019 14:52
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tdgeek:

 

How many cars in the world? X 40kWh per week, how does that work? Oh and those trains and buses

 

 

Exactly - so the last thing we can afford to do is to move to a much less efficient way of storing energy than batteries, ie H2.

 

Storage is the Achilles heel of renewable, but I find it hard to believe that there are no further suitable sites for hydroelectric in NZ, and that we couldn't enhance any of the current ones.  Provided your lakes are big enough, hydro is perfect because it's renewable and on demand

 

Tidal power is also very interesting because it's completely reliable and predictable


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