Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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1617 posts

Uber Geek

#2260926 19-Jun-2019 14:54

tdgeek:

Obraik: You don't recharge the entire car every night, only what you used. A Model 3 uses about 140wh/km and the typical daily journey for work is about 22km so you'd only need to regain 3.1kwh

You are not reading again, and more denial. I said every week. It doesnt matter if you top up every 5 minutes or every night or once a week, you are using 40kWh per week ( assuming a 40kwH usage for average weekly mileage)that were not used befire x 3.8 million. Where does all this electricity come from, thin air?

Plus the light trains plus the buses, plus the rest of Earth

40kWh is about one days power for a house in Winter, and this will be drawn from each EV, x 3.8 million, one day in the future when all cars are EV

The time actually does matter because if the charging is being done off peak then there's more power available for charging the cars. 40kWh per week is a pretty high average, considering as I said the average person would only use around 3.1kWh for their daily work travel. Assuming the worse case and they do that journey every day that's 21kWh per week.

Of course, we're not going to be clicking our fingers and swapping our 3.8million cars to EVs over night. This will be a gradual transition over the next few decades, which we can respond to by building the power stations that already have consent

tdgeek

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#2260932 19-Jun-2019 14:59

shk292:

tdgeek:

How many cars in the world? X 40kWh per week, how does that work? Oh and those trains and buses

Exactly - so the last thing we can afford to do is to move to a much less efficient way of storing energy than batteries, ie H2.

Storage is the Achilles heel of renewable, but I find it hard to believe that there are no further suitable sites for hydroelectric in NZ, and that we couldn't enhance any of the current ones. Provided your lakes are big enough, hydro is perfect because it's renewable and on demand

Tidal power is also very interesting because it's completely reliable and predictable

It strikes me that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

tdgeek

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#2260933 19-Jun-2019 14:59

shk292:

tdgeek:

How many cars in the world? X 40kWh per week, how does that work? Oh and those trains and buses

Exactly - so the last thing we can afford to do is to move to a much less efficient way of storing energy than batteries, ie H2.

Storage is the Achilles heel of renewable, but I find it hard to believe that there are no further suitable sites for hydroelectric in NZ, and that we couldn't enhance any of the current ones. Provided your lakes are big enough, hydro is perfect because it's renewable and on demand

Tidal power is also very interesting because it's completely reliable and predictable

It strikes me that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

shk292

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#2260940 19-Jun-2019 15:14

tdgeek:

It strikes me that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

So what do you suggest? There are really only three options - continue with FF, increase renewable or introduce nuclear. Or, vastly reduce our energy use.

Delphinus

594 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2260946 19-Jun-2019 15:21

tdgeek:

that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

Remember it's only 3kWh per day (or 21kWh per week - half your estimated 40kWh.

3kWh is running a typical 2kW convection heater for 1.5 hours. It's not much. Time it to run from midnight to 6am when there is no demand, gradually transition in over 20-30 years. Easy.

jonathan18

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#2260951 19-Jun-2019 15:38

shk292:

So what do you suggest? There are really only three options - continue with FF, increase renewable or introduce nuclear. Or, vastly reduce our energy use.

I thought the answer was obvious: hydrogen-fuelled cars.

[written with tongue firmly in cheek]

frankv

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#2260952 19-Jun-2019 15:40

Obraik:

The only concern I have with it for EVs is what if you've run out of charge earlier in the day and you need to charge it in case of an emergency before the ripple control enables charging?

Plug it into a uncontrolled power outlet. More expensive, maybe charge slower, but it'll at least get you moving.

frankv

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#2260953 19-Jun-2019 15:43

tdgeek:

Where does all this electricity come from, thin air?

50% of it comes from not converting it to hydrogen.

tdgeek

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#2260957 19-Jun-2019 16:05

Delphinus:
tdgeek:

that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

Remember it's only 3kWh per day (or 21kWh per week - half your estimated 40kWh.

3kWh is running a typical 2kW convection heater for 1.5 hours. It's not much. Time it to run from midnight to 6am when there is no demand, gradually transition in over 20-30 years. Easy.

What is the average mileage for a car? You need to be wary of cherry picked numbers

tdgeek

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#2260959 19-Jun-2019 16:06

frankv:
tdgeek:

Where does all this electricity come from, thin air?

50% of it comes from not converting it to hydrogen.

Or maybe thin air? Why no answer?

Obraik

1617 posts

Uber Geek

#2260960 19-Jun-2019 16:09

tdgeek:

Or maybe thin air? Why no answer?

As I mentioned further up, we could always build the power stations that already have consent as required

Delphinus

594 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2260966 19-Jun-2019 16:33

tdgeek:
Delphinus:

tdgeek:

that adding one winter day of power usage for every light vehicle every week is a lot of generation. What does 3.8 million x 40kwH x 52 add up to? Plus all the buses and all the trains

Remember it's only 3kWh per day (or 21kWh per week - half your estimated 40kWh.

3kWh is running a typical 2kW convection heater for 1.5 hours. It's not much. Time it to run from midnight to 6am when there is no demand, gradually transition in over 20-30 years. Easy.

What is the average mileage for a car? You need to be wary of cherry picked numbers

Sorry you were right. The numbers were slightly wrong. Correct data from Stats NZ "Average km per work journey" is 11.5km. Make that a return trip = 23km. Using 160wh/km we get 3.6kW. 2 hours of charging a night should easily cover that.

Source: http://nzdotstat.stats.govt.nz/wbos/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLECODE7432
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Specifications

frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek

#2260972 19-Jun-2019 17:03

Post from "Kingdragonfly" 14 June 2019:

"Here's a book on the subject, and in particular hydrogen

Hell and High Water: Global Warming--the Solution and the Politics--and What We Should Do

https://www.amazon.com/Hell-High-Water-Warming-Politics/dp/006117212X "

Wikipedia, when summarising this book mentions that:

Part I, comprising the first four chapters of the book, reviews the science of climate change, setting forth the evidence that humans are causing an unprecedented increase in carbon emissions that is, in turn causing global warming. The book describes the consequences of unchecked climate change, such as destruction of coastal cities due to rising sea levels and mega-hurricanes; increasing droughts and deadly water shortages; infestation of insects into new ranges; and increased famines, heat waves, forest fires and desertification. The book sets forth the research on "feedback loops" that would contribute to accelerating climate change, including:

melting ice at the poles that means less reflection of sunlight by white ice and more absorption of the sun’s heat by ocean water and dark land;
an increasing amount of water vapor in the atmosphere (water vapor is a greenhouse gas);
melting permafrost in the Arctic, where more carbon is locked in Arctic permafrost than in all of the Earth’s atmosphere and where methane, which is about 20 times more powerful than carbon dioxide (CO
2) as a greenhouse gas, is being released by permafrost in the Arctic faster than scientists previously thought it would;
the death of algae and phytoplankton from heat and acidity in the oceans, reducing the CO
2 being absorbed by them; and
the reduced ability of tropical forests to absorb CO
2 as they are destroyed.

Romm proposes an eight-point program, based on existing technologies, to counter and then reverse the trend toward catastrophic global warming: performance-based efficiency programs; energy efficiencygains from industry and power generation through cogeneration of heat and power; building wind farms; capturing carbon dioxide from proposed coal plants; building nuclear plants; greatly improving the fuel economy of our vehicles using PHEVs; increasing production of high-yield energy crops; and stopping tropical deforestation while planting more trees.(pp. 22–23)

It's interesting that a "feedback loop" that could contribute to accelerating climate change is an increasing amount of water vapour in the atmosphere.

Some concern has been expressed in this thread (and others) that a large number of hydrogen-powered vehicles, which emit water vapour could increase the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere and thus be part of accelerating climate change.

However, the book is now quite out of date (written 2006), so more recent research may not consider that an increase in water vapour is a cause for concern, but it's probably still a factor worthy of more research.

tdgeek

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#2261080 19-Jun-2019 20:11

shk292:

tdgeek:

How many cars in the world? X 40kWh per week, how does that work? Oh and those trains and buses

Exactly - so the last thing we can afford to do is to move to a much less efficient way of storing energy than batteries, ie H2.

Storage is the Achilles heel of renewable, but I find it hard to believe that there are no further suitable sites for hydroelectric in NZ, and that we couldn't enhance any of the current ones. Provided your lakes are big enough, hydro is perfect because it's renewable and on demand

Tidal power is also very interesting because it's completely reliable and predictable

Tidal is good, but minor. Solar is good but minor. Wind is good but minor

No one will say what the EV fleet at 3.8 million x 40kWh x 52 is, or if hydro can mange that

tdgeek

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#2261084 19-Jun-2019 20:15

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Obraik: You don't recharge the entire car every night, only what you used. A Model 3 uses about 140wh/km and the typical daily journey for work is about 22km so you'd only need to regain 3.1kwh

You are not reading again, and more denial. I said every week. It doesnt matter if you top up every 5 minutes or every night or once a week, you are using 40kWh per week ( assuming a 40kwH usage for average weekly mileage)that were not used befire x 3.8 million. Where does all this electricity come from, thin air?

Plus the light trains plus the buses, plus the rest of Earth

40kWh is about one days power for a house in Winter, and this will be drawn from each EV, x 3.8 million, one day in the future when all cars are EV

The time actually does matter because if the charging is being done off peak then there's more power available for charging the cars. 40kWh per week is a pretty high average, considering as I said the average person would only use around 3.1kWh for their daily work travel. Assuming the worse case and they do that journey every day that's 21kWh per week.

Of course, we're not going to be clicking our fingers and swapping our 3.8million cars to EVs over night. This will be a gradual transition over the next few decades, which we can respond to by building the power stations that already have consent

Wrong again, time doesn't matter. The issue is my estimate of 40kWh per car per week. EV range is low, seems a good estimate to me. We need to find 40kWh our vehicle per week from somewhere. Now that Im home, 3.8 M x 40kWh x 52 is 7904 Million kWh per year. 152M kWh per week, how much new Hydro does that amount to?

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