Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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#2256459 12-Jun-2019 08:55

BlueShift:

frednz:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

From the above:

At its core, a hydrogen car is an electric vehicle with a small onboard battery that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell that pulls stored hydrogen gas, mixes it with oxygen from the atmosphere, and runs it through a proton exchange membrane, releasing electricity along the way. The only byproduct of this process is water, making the vehicle essentially just an electric vehicle that gets its power from a different type of onboard battery drivetrain. I’ve driven both popular models for CleanTechnica — the Toyota Mirai and the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell — and found that they both drove and operated like “normal” vehicles, which is great.

This article refers to a "small onboard battery" that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell. This seems a lot better than having a huge weight of batteries that takes ages to charge with electricity. I wonder how long this small onboard battery would last before it needs replacement?

True, but you're replacing a huge weight of batteries with a huge weight of ultra-high pressure gas storage tank. Hydrogen is a slippery wee molecule, and the tanks to hold it need to be stronger and solider than your average LPG cylinder.

Solider? Nice word!! :-)

cyril7

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#2256460 12-Jun-2019 08:56

Hi I too have a few concerns about the green ness of Hydrogen drives, seems a complex and not very green method to collect and store electrons for propulsion, but I am keeping an open mind.

Found this interesting little car from Wales, rather than using a Lithium Ion cell to act as temporary regenerative brake storage and short term acceleration storage they are using super CAPS, which I guess only work for them as a result of the diminutive size of the vehicle. The designers of the RiverSimple have some interesting commentary on the tech, so worth a read.

Cyril

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#2256463 12-Jun-2019 09:00

tdgeek:

Can we make 64 billion kWh of batteries? To power the globes passenger cars? Do we have enough resources? Can we do this every 15 years?

Lithium and other metals are finite resources

Can we afford inefficiency of turning good electricity into hydrogen and the associated inefficiencies over just putting it directly into batteries?

Combustion tech is relatively mature. Batteries are not and density improvements will come over time.

Already the market is finding a way around the ethical issues of cobalt. There is a lot of money being thrown at reducing the use of rare minerals in powertrains and batteries.

tdgeek

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#2256464 12-Jun-2019 09:00

cyril7:

Hi I too have a few concerns about the green ness of Hydrogen drives, seems a complex and not very green method to collect and store electrons for propulsion, but I am keeping an open mind.

Found this interesting little car from Wales, rather than using a Lithium Ion cell to act as temporary regenerative brake storage and short term acceleration storage they are using super CAPS, which I guess only work for them as a result of the diminutive size of the vehicle

Cyril

You can make H from green energy. You also have the issue of running an EV in countries where the electricity is created using FF. And FF are used to create and keep recreating batteries. They all have pros and cons and require improvement. But this type of discussion will end up being dominated by EV fans and not the environmental fans I suspect.

tdgeek

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#2256476 12-Jun-2019 09:11

GV27:

tdgeek:

Can we make 64 billion kWh of batteries? To power the globes passenger cars? Do we have enough resources? Can we do this every 15 years?

Lithium and other metals are finite resources

Can we afford inefficiency of turning good electricity into hydrogen and the associated inefficiencies over just putting it directly into batteries?

Combustion tech is relatively mature. Batteries are not and density improvements will come over time.

Already the market is finding a way around the ethical issues of cobalt. There is a lot of money being thrown at reducing the use of rare minerals in powertrains and batteries.

If we have green energy we can use it, if we need more, create more. My concern is batteries. Can we make them with 100% green energy? A set of 64kWh batteries X one billion x every 15 years, that's a lot of cells and a lot of FF to make them

GV27

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#2256517 12-Jun-2019 09:58

tdgeek:

If we have green energy we can use it, if we need more, create more. My concern is batteries. Can we make them with 100% green energy? A set of 64kWh batteries X one billion x every 15 years, that's a lot of cells and a lot of FF to make them

We won't be making hydrogen with green energy either. My understanding is the most effective way to make hydrogen is either through nuclear power, which isn't a great option locally, or from by-products of the refining process. Now throw in the inputs required to convert/set up filling stations with the kind of tanks and equipment required to dispense hydrogen vs...the plug I use to do the vacuuming in the garage. Finally the opportunity costs of the reform of no longer having commuters beholden to our local petrol companies, which are not known for operating in a highly competitive market - something which hydrogen will likely perpetuate.

The joy of battery tech is that you will end up using less and less material to get the same or greater levels of energy density. We're still getting our heads around the basics of storing hydrogen. Time is apparently a factor here; can we afford to wait for hydrogen to be ready for the good time, or will that be a case of perfect being the enemy of good enough?

NzBeagle

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#2256522 12-Jun-2019 10:07

The concept is an attractive one from a Heavy Transport opportunity, if they can make something viable. Not sure we should put all our eggs in the EV market just yet. Refilling is still a concern for many users, Hydrogen erodes that, but perhaps EV charging will catch up before Hydrogen reaches viability?

tdgeek

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#2256526 12-Jun-2019 10:12

GV27:

tdgeek:

If we have green energy we can use it, if we need more, create more. My concern is batteries. Can we make them with 100% green energy? A set of 64kWh batteries X one billion x every 15 years, that's a lot of cells and a lot of FF to make them

We won't be making hydrogen with green energy either. My understanding is the most effective way to make hydrogen is either through nuclear power, which isn't a great option locally, or from by-products of the refining process. Now throw in the inputs required to convert/set up filling stations with the kind of tanks and equipment required to dispense hydrogen vs...the plug I use to do the vacuuming in the garage. Finally the opportunity costs of the reform of no longer having commuters beholden to our local petrol companies, which are not known for operating in a highly competitive market - something which hydrogen will likely perpetuate.

The joy of battery tech is that you will end up using less and less material to get the same or greater levels of energy density. We're still getting our heads around the basics of storing hydrogen. Time is apparently a factor here; can we afford to wait for hydrogen to be ready for the good time, or will that be a case of perfect being the enemy of good enough?

Who decided we wont use green energy? It is possible, and the concept for Hydrogen is there.

Is EV the great solution I'm not so sure. How many countries are 80%+ using green electricity? EV's where we use FF, we may as well not bother. Can we make 64kWh battery sets x one billion x every 15 years? Thats a problem. EV in itself is years away, many many many years away

To solve the time problem we need to rebuild how we think of transport as owning our own transport wont work. We need to see transport as a service. Or submit to nuclear as the global power choice. Or electrical public transport for all of us, that's the reality

NzBeagle

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#2256527 12-Jun-2019 10:15

tdgeek:

To solve the time problem we need to rebuild how we think of transport as owning our own transport wont work. We need to see transport as a service. Or submit to nuclear as the global power choice. Or electrical public transport for all of us, that's the reality

This is already a growing trend in large cities. The likes of Uber making it more compelling, along with public transport improvements (in some places). How often do you hear people say, not worth owning a car. Does Japan not already have policies in place that prevent excessive vehicle ownership?

tdgeek

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#2256530 12-Jun-2019 10:24

NzBeagle:

tdgeek:

To solve the time problem we need to rebuild how we think of transport as owning our own transport wont work. We need to see transport as a service. Or submit to nuclear as the global power choice. Or electrical public transport for all of us, that's the reality

This is already a growing trend in large cities. The likes of Uber making it more compelling, along with public transport improvements (in some places). How often do you hear people say, not worth owning a car. Does Japan not already have policies in place that prevent excessive vehicle ownership?

Minimal. The bulk of us want our own car, its that simple. A few little initiatives that wont happen or be small niche areas isn't material. Excessive vehicle ownership? That's funny. We need to get past this one person one car mentality. If we woke up tomorrow, and there were no cars, only buses and light rail, we would manage that quite ok. The feel here is that H is no answer. IMHO, global use of EV is no answer either, and both will take an age, time we don't have. While ceasing cars and using public transport wont be wanted, its really the only solution

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#2256539 12-Jun-2019 10:33

To me, I feel like Hydrogen is just too late to the game. It's been toted as the solution to our problems since the early 2000's but very little has changed or progressed with them. Uptake is almost 0 of hydrogen vehicles. I would have said hydrogen would be suitable for trucks but now we have the likes of Tesla and established truck companies making EV trucks too and Germany has started trialing some trolleybus like solution for trucks on the Autobahn. While hydrogen development seems to be stagnant, battery technology has only been improving. While we currently use lithium batteries for EVs there's already enhancements and replacements for this in the works with the likes of super capacitors and solid state batteries.

Hydrogen vehicles are currently very inefficient when compared to EV. Where a hydrogen vehicle is less that 25% efficient, an EV can be up to 70%, so you need less energy to make a EV go as far.

Do we also really want another era of vehicles where we're tied to a central fueling ideology? One of the great things about an EV is that most people never need to visit a central charging location, it's all done at home. You come home, you plug it in and you're good to go the next day. You can also make your own electricity if you wish. EV's give the consumers much more freedom.

tdgeek

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#2256552 12-Jun-2019 10:49

Obraik:

To me, I feel like Hydrogen is just too late to the game. It's been toted as the solution to our problems since the early 2000's but very little has changed or progressed with them. Uptake is almost 0 of hydrogen vehicles. I would have said hydrogen would be suitable for trucks but now we have the likes of Tesla and established truck companies making EV trucks too and Germany has started trialing some trolleybus like solution for trucks on the Autobahn. While hydrogen development seems to be stagnant, battery technology has only been improving. While we currently use lithium batteries for EVs there's already enhancements and replacements for this in the works with the likes of super capacitors and solid state batteries.

Hydrogen vehicles are currently very inefficient when compared to EV. Where a hydrogen vehicle is less that 25% efficient, an EV can be up to 70%, so you need less energy to make a EV go as far.

Do we also really want another era of vehicles where we're tied to a central fueling ideology? One of the great things about an EV is that most people never need to visit a central charging location, it's all done at home. You come home, you plug it in and you're good to go the next day. You can also make your own electricity if you wish. EV's give the consumers much more freedom.

It must have benefits if companies are on it. My issue is that EV cannot be sustainable if you want to solve the global emissions crisis. Can we build that many batteries to power one billion cars? And this just consumer cars not commercials and trucks. Is that sustainable? Or is it even possible? EV is also a time problem, They are here in miniscule numbers, they are not affordable as a direct replacement for most people. If everyone had one we need more green energy in NZ. Overseas, they will consume more carbon for those countries that do not have large hydro resources.

As H is common, its worth a look

tdgeek

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#2256556 12-Jun-2019 11:04

Is H inefficient? Doesnt seem so at https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

Using H and EV may be a better option. That reduces battery usage, promotes competition between the two technologies as well as decreases the time to solve the problems both have.

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#2256564 12-Jun-2019 11:17

tdgeek:
Is H inefficient? Doesnt seem so at https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

Using H and EV may be a better option. That reduces battery usage, promotes competition between the two technologies as well as decreases the time to solve the problems both have.

Main inefficiencies with hydrogen come from making it va electrolisis (if we want green hydrogen), and compressing it to crazy high pressures. Fuel cells are pritty good efficiency compaired to combustion engines, but not as good as batteries.

Note the 80% efficiency considers energy being recovered from waste heat, unlike the numbers quoted for combustion engines.

tdgeek

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#2256566 12-Jun-2019 11:20

Scott3:
tdgeek:

Is H inefficient? Doesnt seem so at https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

Using H and EV may be a better option. That reduces battery usage, promotes competition between the two technologies as well as decreases the time to solve the problems both have.

Main inefficiencies with hydrogen come from making it va electrolisis (if we want green hydrogen), and compressing it to crazy high pressures. Fuel cells are pritty good efficiency compaired to combustion engines, but not as good as batteries.

Note the 80% efficiency considers energy being recovered from waste heat, unlike the numbers quoted for combustion engines.

Ok, thanks

How do we outfit fit 1 billion cars with EV or H? Then replace them after 15 years

Clearly, some see benefits with H. It can be fully green where EV isn't. H is plentiful, battery metals aren't

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