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wellygary
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  #2256572 12-Jun-2019 11:26
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tdgeek:

 

Is H inefficient? Doesnt seem so at https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

 

 

The simple chemistry of electrolysing water into hydrogen is wasteful, H2O into H2 and O, H2 ( which you use) had 4 electrons, O( which is lost as 02) has 8 electrons,  you are keeping the smallest part of the reaction....

 


tdgeek
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  #2256573 12-Jun-2019 11:33
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wellygary:

 

tdgeek:

 

Is H inefficient? Doesnt seem so at https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

 

 

The simple chemistry of electrolysing water into hydrogen is wasteful, H2O into H2 and O, H2 ( which you use) had 4 electrons, O( which is lost as 02) has 8 electrons,  you are keeping the smallest part of the reaction....

 

 

 

Does that include the higher energy content of H? Double the FF range

 

But again, can we outfit the world's 1 billion passenger cars with batteries every 15 years? Resource wise. H has its issues, but supply isn't one of them

 

If we want to be 100% green, because we have to be, we can produce H by green energy. Who cares if its inefficient? If we can make petrol get us 100mpg, we still can't use it as the issue isn't cost or efficiency, its pollution.  The issue for H is no pollution, and no FF used to create it


Obraik
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  #2256577 12-Jun-2019 11:44
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With the current efficiency rates, to make green hydrogen through electrolysis it would take much more electricity to create the Hydrogen to make the same amount of cars go the same distance as an equal number of EVs.  We would need a larger electrical grid for Hydrogen cars than we would if they were EVs.

 

Don't base battery supply on how we make batteries today.  There are new technologies around this on the way, with the likes of solid state batteries. Even so, Lithium isn't exactly a rare material and mining it isn't all that dirty either.

 

 


frankv
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  #2256579 12-Jun-2019 11:45
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tdgeek:

 

The bulk of us want our own car, its that simple.

 

 

Why?

 

For me, firstly it's that I can come and go whenever I want. Yes, almost all of my driving is to and from work, at about the same time and along the same route each day. So public transport (if there was any available) would be a good option 90% of the time. But it's the exceptions -- go somewhere at the weekend, pick up something on the way home from work, grab something from the supermarket when it's raining, an occasional late finish at work, transport a bulky item -- that make car ownership worthwhile or even necessary. Until public transport is that good, I'll want to own my own car. And, once the fixed costs of car ownership have been paid, the variable costs aren't that high.

 

Cars are also status symbols. The higher the cost of car ownership, the better the value of a car as a status symbol, so the more effort people will put into owning one.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2256585 12-Jun-2019 11:55
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Obraik:

 

With the current efficiency rates, to make green hydrogen through electrolysis it would take much more electricity to create the Hydrogen to make the same amount of cars go the same distance as an equal number of EVs.  We would need a larger electrical grid for Hydrogen cars than we would if they were EVs.

 

Don't base battery supply on how we make batteries today.  There are new technologies around this on the way, with the likes of solid state batteries. Even so, Lithium isn't exactly a rare material and mining it isn't all that dirty either.

 

 

 

 

From a few things I've read, admittedly a year ago, the supply of battery metals isn't great. It needs to be plentiful, and cheap, otherwise we just head down the track of super high prices. If the issue is just my EV I want this year and for a few years who cares, but humans dont understand what sustainable means. If we can just say, hey we will invent something thats cheap and plentiful that will last forever, thats a good solution....

 

Even as it is now, EV's will make no difference to our plight, its too little and too late. By the time we have 80% EV's we will be in the next century


frankv
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  #2256586 12-Jun-2019 11:55
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tdgeek:

 

But again, can we outfit the world's 1 billion passenger cars with batteries every 15 years? Resource wise. H has its issues, but supply isn't one of them

 

 

I think we probably can. World car production is about 70M p.a. so we can replace all of those 1 billion cars, including the complex engines and gearboxes and so on, every 15 years. If a battery has a life of 15 years (which I think is a bit optimistic), then it will last for the life of the car. And, when a battery is no good as a battery any more, it still contains all the elements that it was made of. So I expect that the cobalt, nickel, whatever could be extracted and used to make new batteries.

 

 


frankv
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  #2256591 12-Jun-2019 11:59
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tdgeek:

 

By the time we have 80% EV's we will be in the next century

 

 

Given that many countries will be selling 100% EVs in 5 years, those countries will be very close to 100% EV on the road in another 15 years. So I don't think it will take another 80 years to get to 80% EVs.


tdgeek
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  #2256635 12-Jun-2019 12:13
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frankv:

 

tdgeek:

 

By the time we have 80% EV's we will be in the next century

 

 

Given that many countries will be selling 100% EVs in 5 years, those countries will be very close to 100% EV on the road in another 15 years. So I don't think it will take another 80 years to get to 80% EVs.

 

 

Many countries are banning ICE in 5 years?


WyleECoyoteNZ
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  #2256756 12-Jun-2019 14:39
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IMO, I don't think we'll see Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles over taking pure EV's any time soon, but there is no reason they both can't co-exist

 

The Tech isn't that new, Honda have had the FCX Clarity since 2011, and I remember James May doing a review of it on Top Gear back in the day

 

I did find this though from Honda on the FCX

 

 

And although there are few (Ok, very few, in fact only 4) Hydrogen vehicles, the range of the current gen FCX is very good (480 km's)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle#List_of_models_produced

 

And there is the benefit. Theoretically, a hydrogen powered FCX can do 480 km's or thereabouts, stop at a Hydrogen filling station, fill up in 5-6 minutes and be on their way again. Sure, the an EV can also do the same distance, but with a fast charger, they'll be stopped for much longer. And Yes, I know EV charge times are coming down, but until there on a par with ICE vehicles, I don't see the uptake improving rapidly. 

 

Of course, this assumes there are Hydrogen filling stations everywhere like there are petrol stations now, which of course, there isn't. And although the EV charging infrastructure is getting there, they are not yet everywhere like petrol stations are. 

 

And yes, I know it takes a lot of energy to produce the Hydrogen, but wouldn't this create another industry in NZ, providing work for NZer's?

 

A couple of my concerns around the NZ vehicle fleet going pure EV only are:

 

- Based off current electricity generation are we producing enough electricity from the current green sources (hydro dams / thermal gen etc), or do we need to look at other options, e.g. nuclear

 

- Based off EV charge times, the current smattering of EV charging places aren't going to be enough, so are footpaths going to have a charging bay for each car park, or are current service stations going to have to double in size? If a current service station pump can fill a car in 5 minutes, or less, but it takes 20-30 minutes to charge an EV. Not everyone is going to charge their EV at home, and not everyone has the ability to do so.


Obraik
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  #2256792 12-Jun-2019 15:21
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Most people do have the ability to charge their EV at home though.  Most people also drive their car to work each day or to a supermarket a few times a week so these are other extended stop opportunities for charging.  Most EV owners do not visit a public charging station and only do so on a road trip so charge times are generally only a factor during these extended road trips.

 

If we don't have enough electricity generation capability for EVs then we certainly don't have enough for Hydrogen electrolysis 


NzBeagle
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  #2256833 12-Jun-2019 15:32
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Obraik:

 

Most people do have the ability to charge their EV at home though.  Most people also drive their car to work each day or to a supermarket a few times a week so these are other extended stop opportunities for charging.  Most EV owners do not visit a public charging station and only do so on a road trip so charge times are generally only a factor during these extended road trips.

 

 

This is a factor that is definitely in the favour of EVs, the infrastructure already exists, reliably to most of NZ. The top up opportunities at public chargers will help keep costs down / extend range for longer distances. I still however am yet to see fit for purpose in the Heavy industry, other than specific unique use cases. Which is where Hydrogen may be an option.


frankv
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  #2256850 12-Jun-2019 15:41
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tdgeek:

 

frankv:

 

tdgeek:

 

By the time we have 80% EV's we will be in the next century

 

 

Given that many countries will be selling 100% EVs in 5 years, those countries will be very close to 100% EV on the road in another 15 years. So I don't think it will take another 80 years to get to 80% EVs.

 

 

Many countries are banning ICE in 5 years?

 

 

Beg your pardon... I was quite wrong in that.

 

Netherlands and Norway are banning ICE cars from 2025, which is 5 years away (rounding to the nearest year :) ). And several other countries and California are banning from 2040. I expect that many other countries will jump on the bandwagon long before 2040. So 2055 is looking like the near-demise of ICE cars.

 

Still a long way from the turn of the century.

 

 


Obraik
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  #2256863 12-Jun-2019 15:56
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NzBeagle:

 

This is a factor that is definitely in the favour of EVs, the infrastructure already exists, reliably to most of NZ. The top up opportunities at public chargers will help keep costs down / extend range for longer distances. I still however am yet to see fit for purpose in the Heavy industry, other than specific unique use cases. Which is where Hydrogen may be an option.

 

 

If by heavy industry we're talking about things like trucks then there are solutions coming for that. Tesla has their Semi that they're working on which they plan to have a range of 480km for the Standard or 805km for the long range, both while fully loaded.  If they do infact end up with that range then that's more than enough for a country like NZ where the distance between our ports is usually shorter.  Chuck a few "megachargers" that Elon has talked about at the ports and they can recharge in 30mins.

 

When it comes to heavy machinery like diggers, loaders, etc then that's going to be trickier as an EV solution since they often work in remote locations and can't just drive up to a charging station.  A possible solution is a "recharge tanker" which is basically a powerbank on wheels and wouldn't really be all that different to the current solution for diesel where they bring in a tanker with diesel to fill up the machines or in the case of Hydrogen, a Hydrogen tanker.


CitizenErased
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  #2256874 12-Jun-2019 15:59
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The bottleneck at the moment isn't the supply of raw materials (lithium, cobalt, etc), it's a lack of capacity in battery production plants. New plants are being constructed en masse, but it's going to take a while for supply to meet demand.


NzBeagle
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  #2256877 12-Jun-2019 16:03
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Obraik:

 

If by heavy industry we're talking about things like trucks then there are solutions coming for that. Tesla has their Semi that they're working on which they plan to have a range of 480km for the Standard or 805km for the long range, both while fully loaded.  If they do infact end up with that range then that's more than enough for a country like NZ where the distance between our ports is usually shorter.  Chuck a few "megachargers" that Elon has talked about at the ports and they can recharge in 30mins.

 

 

Coming is one thing, I'm hopeful. 


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