Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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#2258084 14-Jun-2019 12:15

tdgeek:

You make it sound so easy. Home solar is not worth it. It wont cover your home usage all year or even close. Powerwall is $18k and a measly 13kWh. You could get 20kWh and 3 Powerwalls I guess, unsure who will pay for that. Most houses cannot fit 20kWh anyway

We need more hydro, solar farms and wind wont cut it. We are already 14% in the red where are these farms?

Its about time we asked the hard questions, rather than drinking koolaid and justifying everything that we need to, when some of it is not reality. Aside from the cost benefit analysis not being there, the money isnt there, neither is the time. We need to plan hydro now, and for the future, noting that that is not an unlimited option either

Yep, battery storage isn't free but it will get cheaper. However, you dismiss 13kWh as "measly" yet the average home doesn't consume much more than that for the whole day. The idea wasn't to fully power the house off battery storage but to significantly reduce the reliance on the grid. It's a smarter way to reduce the load on the grid and reduce the need for more centralized electricity generation.

You're accusing those supporting EVs as "drinking the koolaid" but you're refusing to look at the bigger picture :) We can't do hydrogen electrolysis without increasing our electricity generation as its very energy hungry. If we're increasing our generation capability why waste it on something as inefficient as hydrogen electrolysis? Why not instead use it for the more efficient EVs?

tdgeek

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#2258092 14-Jun-2019 12:35

Obraik:

tdgeek:

You make it sound so easy. Home solar is not worth it. It wont cover your home usage all year or even close. Powerwall is $18k and a measly 13kWh. You could get 20kWh and 3 Powerwalls I guess, unsure who will pay for that. Most houses cannot fit 20kWh anyway

We need more hydro, solar farms and wind wont cut it. We are already 14% in the red where are these farms?

Its about time we asked the hard questions, rather than drinking koolaid and justifying everything that we need to, when some of it is not reality. Aside from the cost benefit analysis not being there, the money isnt there, neither is the time. We need to plan hydro now, and for the future, noting that that is not an unlimited option either

Yep, battery storage isn't free but it will get cheaper. However, you dismiss 13kWh as "measly" yet the average home doesn't consume much more than that for the whole day. The idea wasn't to fully power the house off battery storage but to significantly reduce the reliance on the grid. It's a smarter way to reduce the load on the grid and reduce the need for more centralized electricity generation.

You're accusing those supporting EVs as "drinking the koolaid" but you're refusing to look at the bigger picture :) We can't do hydrogen electrolysis without increasing our electricity generation as its very energy hungry. If we're increasing our generation capability why waste it on something as inefficient as hydrogen electrolysis? Why not instead use it for the more efficient EVs?

The powerwall was $15k its now $18k, that's not cheaper. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Wow. This on low user use 8000 units or less per year. Your average user uses 5475? This is just more of the same. You just use words to justify what suits. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Thats a shocker.

I once suggested that everyone gets solar. Every house. It makes little difference, its a very small number compared to overall usage, so home solar being used to supplement the grid doesn't work. A great idea I though, but the experts here gave the numbers, its too small

Supporting EV's are drinking the koolaid? That just shows that you either dont read or your bias is blinding you. I support EV. Im looking at a Kona. I just checked out what a new Leaf looks like, yes its 5 door that suits me. So, yes, I support EV. But I'm also not blind to the challenges. They are too expensive for MOST. If you can afford one, they are too expensive, as the premium far exceeds fuel savings. They almost don't exist in NZ compared to the 3.8 million light vehicles we have, so it will be a LONG time before they make an appreciable difference to emissions. It will already be too late then more than likely. I have no issue with range anxiety. I do have an issue with us removing the 15% FF energy usage , and the extra we need for EV, that wont come from Powerwalls, or solar or wind, they will remain small numbers

H wont happen, we all know that, Its an idea, its niche. It will probably end up in aircraft. End of topic on that.

EDIT

Its not an issue with the big picture, its an issue with reality. There are a lot of challenges with EV, it will take a long time.

MikeB4

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#2258136 14-Jun-2019 12:49

I do not believe that Hydrogen Fuel Cell is the best alternative for NZ. Hydrogen is a very abundant element but is always found attached to something else and is a pain to separate. It requires a lot of energy and heat to separate and is dodgy stuff to store. In New Zealand's case where 80%+ of our electricity is generated from renewable resources EVs make more sense, Australia however where the majority of their electricity is dirty and generated from coal and not a lot of "clean" alternatives the use of hydrogen makes more sense.

The choice of EV v Hydrogen is a country by country basis based on the circumstances in those countries.

maxeon

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#2258137 14-Jun-2019 12:49

A very good video explaining the problems with generating Hydrogen fuel station is here.

tdgeek

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#2258140 14-Jun-2019 12:55

I think the consensus is already that H is a no go

afe66

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#2258158 14-Jun-2019 13:22

My vision is that domestic solar users can sell their power to the grid for which they would be paid at least wholesale rates. ie compulsory buy back scheme. Also make solar panel arrays compulsory on new builds of more than a certain amount such that they comprise small component of total build costs and protect the poor.

This would encourage installation of domestic solar units which supply to grid, creating additional electricity without need for local storage.

This would add to total power availability.

Probably piss off those who bought electricity shares.

tdgeek

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#2258164 14-Jun-2019 13:32

afe66: My vision is that domestic solar users can sell their power to the grid for which they would be paid at least wholesale rates. ie compulsory buy back scheme. Also make solar panel arrays compulsory on new builds of more than a certain amount such that they comprise small component of total build costs and protect the poor.

This would encourage installation of domestic solar units which supply to grid, creating additional electricity without need for local storage.

This would add to total power availability.

Probably piss off those who bought electricity shares.

I suggested that here, solar for ALL houses to add to the grid. Experts came back as its a small number, wont make any difference. Houses dont use much power

GV27

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#2258165 14-Jun-2019 13:33

tdgeek:

Batteries explode too. https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/113463552/passenger-carryon-bag-ignites-at-us-airport-checkpoint

In todays news, not searched for

TD, you will have my eternal respect if you commit to never using a device with a Li-Ion battery ever again ;)

Also today:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/06/20190613-cmu.html

tdgeek

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#2258171 14-Jun-2019 13:40

To address this shortcoming, we have created a novel suspension-based liquid/solid interface by employing solid electrolytes with a semiliquid lithium metal anode (SLMA) that is flowable at room temperature.

Oddly, i was mulling over this over pudding last night! :-)

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Obraik

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#2258176 14-Jun-2019 13:45

tdgeek:

The powerwall was $15k its now $18k, that's not cheaper. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Wow. This on low user use 8000 units or less per year. Your average user uses 5475? This is just more of the same. You just use words to justify what suits. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Thats a shocker.

What are these numbers you're quoting? Are you quoting per year when I was quoting per day?

tdgeek

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#2258182 14-Jun-2019 13:55

Obraik:

tdgeek:

The powerwall was $15k its now $18k, that's not cheaper. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Wow. This on low user use 8000 units or less per year. Your average user uses 5475? This is just more of the same. You just use words to justify what suits. The average home doesn't consume that for the whole day? Thats a shocker.

What are these numbers you're quoting? Are you quoting per year when I was quoting per day?

However, you dismiss 13kWh as "measly" yet the average home doesn't consume much more than that for the whole day.

13kWh per day. Say not much more makes that 15. X 365 days = 5475. You say this is the average home, which I extrapolated out to one year. Low User is 8000 or less.

Obraik

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#2258186 14-Jun-2019 14:03

tdgeek:

However, you dismiss 13kWh as "measly" yet the average home doesn't consume much more than that for the whole day.

13kWh per day. Say not much more makes that 15. X 365 days = 5475. You say this is the average home, which I extrapolated out to one year. Low User is 8000 or less.

If you click the link, you'll see that that is where I'm getting my number from. According to Stats NZ, the average household size is around 3 people. It's not something I made up.

As I also said in that paragraph you've extracted that quote from, this isn't about fully powering the house by its own solar production but rather reducing the reliance a house has on the grid and using the grid more intelligently. This will reduce a grid usage of a house or at least smooth it out so it's not so lopsided.

tdgeek

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#2258203 14-Jun-2019 14:22

Obraik:

tdgeek:

However, you dismiss 13kWh as "measly" yet the average home doesn't consume much more than that for the whole day.

13kWh per day. Say not much more makes that 15. X 365 days = 5475. You say this is the average home, which I extrapolated out to one year. Low User is 8000 or less.

If you click the link, you'll see that that is where I'm getting my number from. According to Stats NZ, the average household size is around 3 people. It's not something I made up.

As I also said in that paragraph you've extracted that quote from, this isn't about fully powering the house by its own solar production but rather reducing the reliance a house has on the grid and using the grid more intelligently. This will reduce a grid usage of a house or at least smooth it out so it's not so lopsided.

Its not about the average people per home. Its about the "average home doesnt consume much more then 13kWh for the whole day" Your words

I didnt read your link as I knew it was wrong. I should have as its correct but you are wrong. You said not much more that [13kWh) it actually says between 15 and 28. 15 and 28 is "not much more than 13 per day"?

This is a difficult question to answer as it depends on a number of factors such as the type of house, size, number of people living in the property etc. As a very rough estimate a typical NZ home with 2 adults and 2 children would consume between 15 and 28 kWh per day.

Nevertheless large modern open plan homes with pool, aquarium and down lights can easily use between 40 and 50kWh per day with some households using as much as 60kWh of electricity per day.

As Ive stated twice, its already been raised here in the past. As a % of the grid, domestic power usage is very little. Very little. I was surprised. Its no solution, and if it was put in place, it would be uneconomical for the domestic homes and not make any material impact on he grid

GV27

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#2258220 14-Jun-2019 14:40

Far more benefit to be had making our homes warmer and better insulated tbh. Might take some of the pressure off the grid in the long-run.

tdgeek

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#2258223 14-Jun-2019 14:45

GV27:

Far more benefit to be had making our homes warmer and better insulated tbh. Might take some of the pressure off the grid in the long-run.

Yes, you can do a bit there. It wont help the grid as we (residential users) don't use much, (surprisingly) but good for home economics.

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