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antonknee
1133 posts

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  #2896069 3-Apr-2022 10:09
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BlakJak:

 

Yes this is all my opinion and there are references that would debunk at least some of this. I agree that speed has a part to play and some speed limit changes are appropriate... I maintain its still a lever pulled far too often.

 

 

Agree with you on this one - but in lieu of comprehensive driver education (probably the biggest one as it's far too easy to get and keep a license in NZ and most drivers here suck), wholesale changes in driver attitudes (good luck), massive investments in physical road safety (show me the money), it's about the only lever we can pull sometimes.


 
 
 

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blackjack17
1642 posts

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  #2896086 3-Apr-2022 10:50
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The evidence on speed and chance of killing someone is pretty clear.

 

The probability of a pedestrian being killed rises as impact speed increases, it approximately doubles between 30km/h and 40km/h, and doubles again from 40km/h to 50km/h. The risk to vulnerable pedestrians, such as the elderly and young children, is even higher.

 

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/safety/driving-safely/speed/ 

 

 

 

How Likely You Are To Get Killed By A Car, Depending On Its Speed

 

https://imgix.gizmodo.com.au/content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/27/padtfl7o4vmogaam262v.png?auto=format&fit=fill&q=65&nrs=40 

 

Driving too fast - NSW Centre for Road Safety

 

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/survivability2.gif 

 

Driving too fast - NSW Centre for Road Safety

 

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/stopping.gif 

 

 

 

I don't really care about your gear box, if you can't maintain a set speed you shouldn't be driving.  





BlakJak
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  #2896154 3-Apr-2022 11:32
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You can stop with the speed vs fatalities relationships. Aside from being obvious, one could argue that with this as the only control, we shouldn't be travelling faster than 30kmh on any road that has footpaths.

There are other ways to reduce the likelihood of death or serious injury. They're just too hard, apparently.




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  #2896165 3-Apr-2022 11:46
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Although I try to stick to the 30km in the CBD in CHCH I would rather see more policing on cellphones and driving through red bloody lights in the CBD half the time you don't even get an opportunity to turn.





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blackjack17
1642 posts

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  #2896168 3-Apr-2022 11:59
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JaseNZ:

 

Although I try to stick to the 30km in the CBD in CHCH I would rather see more policing on cellphones and driving through red bloody lights in the CBD half the time you don't even get an opportunity to turn.

 

 

It isn't an either or argument.  Yes police should be enforcing traffic lights and cellphones, but what has that got to do with traveling at 30km/hr?





blackjack17
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  #2896172 3-Apr-2022 12:10
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BlakJak: You can stop with the speed vs fatalities relationships. Aside from being obvious, one could argue that with this as the only control, we shouldn't be travelling faster than 30kmh on any road that has footpaths.

There are other ways to reduce the likelihood of death or serious injury. They're just too hard, apparently.

 

Yes it should be obvious but people don't seem to get it.  People traveling at 60km/hr in a 50km zone have a nearly 100% chance of killing someone if they hit them.  This could be a kid running out on the road, someone looking the wrong way or even distracted by their cellphone.  Yes they shouldn't be, but the punishment for a mistake shouldn't be death.

 

Speed limits aren't the only control being talked about, but it is very appropriate in a lot of or non-arterial roads.

 

Should these roads be 50km/hr (or the default 60 that people treat a 50 at)?

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.9084284,174.7607005,3a,75y,18.68h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suWWqLv5uuFHQArGejkJOUg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.9055541,174.7637629,3a,75y,95.62h,171.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shHVrC3diyn1FdDLOkL2USQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.921792,174.7596425,3a,75y,135.58h,84.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suilUcupgc1OZHUiyktV65A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.8997188,174.766706,3a,75y,6.32h,87.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT7Us3dvANirPWmRDF8qcxg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0 

 

 

 

They aren't talking about making these types of roads 30km/hr (but they are talking about removing parking)

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.897875,174.7735648,3a,75y,9.49h,95.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRXSY4d7V8xKl7MElJTXYHQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DRXSY4d7V8xKl7MElJTXYHQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D84.73975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0 

 

 





jlittle
156 posts

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  #2896202 3-Apr-2022 14:20
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antonknee:

...wholesale changes in driver attitudes...


There's a circularity here. Driver attitudes are the main controller of fatal road accidents; if we make cars safer, or roads safer, in the long run drivers adjust their habits until the danger is back to what it was. Statistically, this was demonstrated in some countries with the introduction of safety belts.

The attitude expressed here "I'm not the problem, why should I have to suffer a reduced speed limit" is one of, or close to, the driver attitudes that are the main problem.



RUKI

1388 posts

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  #2896218 3-Apr-2022 14:48
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Interesting to see how this forum has various intelligent views on safety aspect of the subject.
My view on safety is simple: you are driving 1.5 ton machinery - it is dangerous at any speed, that is why in pedestrian's areas it is 5kmh limit. AT could've just made 5kmh a new norm on those 1600 roads they want a 30kmh limit.
IMO it is not safety they do care about, but money and money only.

To those who love math, science and analysis: Driver's reaction could vary significantly. It could take sometimes up to 2 seconds from noticing the hazard to taking an action, e.g. applying brakes, as mentioned in one forensic book on traffic accidents.
At 40kmh car is traveling 11.11 meters per second. Meaning that at the time brakes applied, car had already travelled 22.22 meters - e.g. that is 5 average car lengths. Note that nobody travels in Auckland with the gap of 5 cars in between... At the time brakes applied, depending on the tyres, vehicle weight, and surface condition, wet or dry - it will take another few meters to come to a full stop. You do the math with 30kmh. Put into consideration what everyone had saw numerous times in Auckland: you leave 3 car length gap and immediately it is filled in by a smartass from the neighbour's lane. It is like pointless to introduce face masks, when people are not following social distancing....

I think we will see after rule changes:
- the most number of speeding tickets will be issued to EV drivers as it is harder to feel the speed (although few already bragging they can drive at 30kmh with no problem), to tradies in their Utes and Vans as they are always in a hurry and to people driving manual gear box vehicles.




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blackjack17
1642 posts

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  #2896237 3-Apr-2022 15:24
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RUKI: Interesting to see how this forum has various intelligent views on safety aspect of the subject.
My view on safety is simple: you are driving 1.5 ton machinery - it is dangerous at any speed, that is why in pedestrian's areas it is 5kmh limit. AT could've just made 5kmh a new norm on those 1600 roads they want a 30kmh limit.
IMO it is not safety they do care about, but money and money only.

To those who love math, science and analysis: Driver's reaction could vary significantly. It could take sometimes up to 2 seconds from noticing the hazard to taking an action, e.g. applying brakes, as mentioned in one forensic book on traffic accidents.
At 40kmh car is traveling 11.11 meters per second. Meaning that at the time brakes applied, car had already travelled 22.22 meters - e.g. that is 5 average car lengths. Note that nobody travels in Auckland with the gap of 5 cars in between... At the time brakes applied, depending on the tyres, vehicle weight, and surface condition, wet or dry - it will take another few meters to come to a full stop. You do the math with 30kmh. Put into consideration what everyone had saw numerous times in Auckland: you leave 3 car length gap and immediately it is filled in by a smartass from the neighbour's lane. It is like pointless to introduce face masks, when people are not following social distancing....

I think we will see after rule changes:
- the most number of speeding tickets will be issued to EV drivers as it is harder to feel the speed (although few already bragging they can drive at 30kmh with no problem), to tradies in their Utes and Vans as they are always in a hurry and to people driving manual gear box vehicles.

 

It has way less to do with driver safety than pedestrian and cyclist safety.  As a driver you are in a metal box that is designed to crumple around you, you have airbags and seatbelts.  Pedestrians and cyclists do not.

 

Pedestrians and cyclists account for an outsize share of those statistics, particularly in cities. In 2020, 57 per cent of those killed on Auckland’s roads weren’t in a car. Cyclists were 14 times more likely to die than motorists.

 

https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/streetscapes/

 

The 5km/hr is neither practical nor needed and is simply being facetious.

 

A reduction to 30km/hr on non-arterial roads will have a minor effect on travel time yet greatly enhance the likely hood of some surviving on being hit by a car. \

 

 

 

... even in cities with high car ownership. Gothenburg, a Swedish city of more than 600,000 people, recorded just three road deaths in 2018—one more than on Oteha Valley Road alone that same year. Neither Helsinki nor Oslo recorded a pedestrian fatality in 2019. These cities have prioritised other modes of transport over cars. They lowered speed limits and removed on-street car parking. In the newly vacant space they built protected bike paths, dedicated public transit lanes, and pedestrian infrastructure. The changes have come at little cost to drivers. The Netherlands has the most expansive network of protected bike lanes in the world, and also the highest driver satisfaction, mainly because those cyclists are no longer in cars adding to traffic.

 

https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/streetscapes/ 

 

 

 

We had 62 road deaths in Auckland in 2021. 620 deaths and serious injuries. 270 of these pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/127866875/deaths-on-auckland-roads-increase-by-120-as-govt-commits-to-zero-fatalities-by-2050 

 

I care even less about people getting speeding tickets than I do about gearboxes. 

 

I do care about my children and I being able to walk/ride to school/work safely.





antonknee
1133 posts

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  #2896238 3-Apr-2022 15:27
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RUKI: 
IMO it is not safety they do care about, but money and money only.

 

Unfortunately the smoking gun that rather disproves this conspiracy theory is that revenue raised from speeding tickets actually does not go to Auckland Transport, Waka Kotahi, or even to the Police.

 

jlittle:

The attitude expressed here "I'm not the problem, why should I have to suffer a reduced speed limit" is one of, or close to, the driver attitudes that are the main problem.

 

Funnily enough 9 times out of 10 the person saying "I'm not the problem" is, in fact, the problem.


afe66
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  #2896269 3-Apr-2022 16:51
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When ever these discussions about drivers and road safety arise, I'm reminded often that I have never met a nz driver who didn't describe themselves as an above average driver.

Batman
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  #2896273 3-Apr-2022 17:06
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well statistically half the people are above average and half are below average


Gurezaemon
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  #2896289 3-Apr-2022 17:47
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Batman:

 

well statistically half the people are above average and half are below average

 

 

Being an average NZ driver is not exactly a high bar to reach for.

 

Reminds me of the George Carlin quote:— 'Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.'





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BlakJak
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  #2896347 3-Apr-2022 18:30
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blackjack17: People traveling at 60km/hr (surplus words deleted) have a nearly 100% chance of killing someone if they hit them.  This could be a kid running out on the road, someone looking the wrong way or even distracted by their cellphone.  Yes they shouldn't be, but the punishment for a mistake shouldn't be death.

 

The speed is the factor. Not the speed limit. As others have noted, speed limits are not a target and they should be set based on the overall risk position.

 

The last time I drove East Tamaki Road (admittedly a few years ago now; i've been in Wellington since 2015) travelling at 60km/h was safe for much of its length.  And if we reiterate that it's a limit - not a target - you adjust for conditions.
Auckland has plenty of main arterials that IMHO would be candidates for a 60km/h limit, rather than just pulling them down to a 50km/h limit 'for consistency'.

 

50km/h is the default suburban speed limit - this is a taught fact. But as on all roads, 50km/h may not be unsafe when you have wide enough kerbs, clear lines of sight to pedestrians and other hazards, and you adjust your speed to suit.  Good judgement helps... teaching our drivers how to drive defensively and apply critical thinking would have better net benefits, but it's difficult, so we instead reach for the speed limit lever.

 

To be fair, those small suburban streets which are frequented by kids and such, the speed limit drop will have limited impact... i'm more taking issue with the principle than the specifics in all cases.

 

 

 

They aren't talking about making these types of roads 30km/hr (but they are talking about removing parking)

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/@-36.897875,174.7735648,3a,75y,9.49h,95.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRXSY4d7V8xKl7MElJTXYHQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DRXSY4d7V8xKl7MElJTXYHQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D84.73975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-GB&authuser=0 

 

 

I'm not saying the whole concept is a fail, i'm saying that as a general rule we pull the speed-limit lever too often.  With that road as it is now, the 50km/h limit is entirely appropriate.





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RUKI

1388 posts

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  #2896359 3-Apr-2022 19:17
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Re: cyclist's safety. Be honest and tell me this:
Have you or your kids ever being told at school this safety rule:
"Do not ride your bicycle while you are crossing road on pedestrian crossing? Get off and walk accross holding the bicycle by hand" Anyone?
Judging by what I saw during last 20 years - looks like this safety rule had never being learnt in NZ schools. Do not expect the car traveling at 30kmh being able to stop in time when such idiot jumps in front of it on pedestrian crossing....
Another safety related observation:
On my street with 40kmh limit and 2 schools in proximity I regularly see cyclists and scateboardists without helmets...
They put their life in danger and 30kmh speed limit won't save them...




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