Clean Car Discount changes July 2023

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Clean Car Discount changes July 2023

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Batman

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#3076899 16-May-2023 18:07

Scott3:

Emissions ratings are going to become increasingly important for NZ car importers.

There seems to be some issue with the WLTP conversion.

Corolla hatch gets 101g/km CO2 (Converted from Euro5)
Corolla Wagon gets 88.28 g/km CO2 (Converted from Japan 2018).
Means the wagon gets a $1635.38 clean car discount rebate, and the hatch gets nothing.

And I can't at first glance see any reason that beyond the different rating processes the wagon would be so much more efficient. Think it would be good to fix this in interest of fairness. (if not I think we will see a lot of brands opt to bring Japan-rated cars to NZ, instead of euro ones).

are you saying these discounts and fees are based on non standardised measures? that's not very smart! i am sure car companies can use the best metric and publish those and get better ratings?

nova

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#3077079 17-May-2023 10:34

Batman:

Scott3:

Emissions ratings are going to become increasingly important for NZ car importers.

There seems to be some issue with the WLTP conversion.

Corolla hatch gets 101g/km CO2 (Converted from Euro5)
Corolla Wagon gets 88.28 g/km CO2 (Converted from Japan 2018).
Means the wagon gets a $1635.38 clean car discount rebate, and the hatch gets nothing.

And I can't at first glance see any reason that beyond the different rating processes the wagon would be so much more efficient. Think it would be good to fix this in interest of fairness. (if not I think we will see a lot of brands opt to bring Japan-rated cars to NZ, instead of euro ones).

are you saying these discounts and fees are based on non standardised measures? that's not very smart! i am sure car companies can use the best metric and publish those and get better ratings?

They are based on standardised measures, but since there are lots of different standards, they get normalised into a single value for NZ, which approximates what it would be under 3P-WLTP. Normalisation seems to be mostly in the form of y = mx + c and at different points on the graph this formula will work better than at other points. Conversion tables are in vehicle-efficiency-and-emissions-data-2022.pdf. The difference of 13g in the Corolla case above is likely a problem with the conversion formula, but the real world emissions will be very dependent on how close your driving distances and speeds matches the standardised drive cycle that the tests are using. And this is open to manipulation by the manufacturers, a famous example is the Volkswagen emissions scandal

Scott3

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#3077093 17-May-2023 11:15

Batman:

Scott3:

Emissions ratings are going to become increasingly important for NZ car importers.

There seems to be some issue with the WLTP conversion.

Corolla hatch gets 101g/km CO2 (Converted from Euro5)
Corolla Wagon gets 88.28 g/km CO2 (Converted from Japan 2018).
Means the wagon gets a $1635.38 clean car discount rebate, and the hatch gets nothing.

And I can't at first glance see any reason that beyond the different rating processes the wagon would be so much more efficient. Think it would be good to fix this in interest of fairness. (if not I think we will see a lot of brands opt to bring Japan-rated cars to NZ, instead of euro ones).

are you saying these discounts and fees are based on non standardised measures? that's not very smart! i am sure car companies can use the best metric and publish those and get better ratings?

The issue is that there are many standardized measures / Test cycles: WLTP, NEDC, Japanese JC08 mode, Japanese 10-15
mode or CAFE.

They get normalized to 3P-WLTP equivalent via an equation, but it is never possible to do that perfectly.

As an example, A car with poor aerodynamics will do well in a test cycle with lower speeds, relative to one with high speeds (vs a car with really good aerodynamics). Not possible to perfectly normalize results to a cycle with different speeds etc.

Note that the document the other user above set out describes a the most preferred test cycle, so the Japanese JC08 can only be used where no WLTP or NEDC data is available. This must be the case for the Corolla Wagon, but not the Corolla hatch. I guess the corolla Touring in the UK is different enough that it's WLTP rating cannot be used...

But yeah, suddenly the paper emissions rating of a car is super important to the buyer/importer, so dealers will be looking for every trick they can to get small paper gains (even if there is no corresponding real world gain).

------

This focus on paper ratings (instead of real world consumption) is one of the weaknesses of such policies.

A hypothetical buyer would be an incentive to buy a 2.5L Mazda 3 hatch (rated 7.3L/100km 3P-WLTP conversion from NEDC), and slap on a big roof box, over buying a 2.5L Mazda 6 wagon (rated 7.8L/100km, 3P-WLTP conversion from NEDC). Despite the fact that that the larger wagon would likely beat the hatchback with permanently affixed roof box in the real world.

Mehrts

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#3077246 17-May-2023 17:45

For anyone wondering how the rebate transition works with regard to registration/rebate application dates: It's determined by the date that vehicles must have been first registered in NZ. Not the application or payment date etc.

E.g. If you purchase a BEV on/before June 30 and it's registered on that date to you, then the current rebate ($8625) will be paid out even if you apply for it after July 1st. Whereas if the vehicle is registered on/after the 1st of July, then it'll be eligible for the new amount ($7015).

Source: NZTA's direct response to my query from two weeks ago.

Scott3

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#3077830 19-May-2023 13:22

Hyundai are flagging the change in its marketing. Last chance to get in before the rebate / fee changes....

They are running some good discounts too, Ioniq 5 73kWh RWD is discounted by $11k to bring it into rebate territory. Tuson PHEV also discounted into rebate territory.

MikeAqua

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#3078494 22-May-2023 09:48

A lot of people got in and replaced vehicle well before v1 of the new vehicle taxes. I know we replaced our SUV a few years before we'd planned to, the new one is a few hundred kg heavier, with slightly worse GHG emissions, but lower particulate emissions. My employer replaced the whole fleet of light commercials, like for like. You couldn't get a ute for love or money when we were looking at vehicle replacement.

It seemed at time the clean car policy had done more to promote ute sales that Crumpy and Scotty ever did.

I was in Coromandel recently for a boys' trip out charter fishing. We drove through Thames on the way and there were beaucoup of vans and utes lined up awaiting transport to their new owners.

Mike

Obraik

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#3079049 23-May-2023 15:15

MikeAqua:

A lot of people got in and replaced vehicle well before v1 of the new vehicle taxes. I know we replaced our SUV a few years before we'd planned to, the new one is a few hundred kg heavier, with slightly worse GHG emissions, but lower particulate emissions. My employer replaced the whole fleet of light commercials, like for like. You couldn't get a ute for love or money when we were looking at vehicle replacement.

It seemed at time the clean car policy had done more to promote ute sales that Crumpy and Scotty ever did.

I was in Coromandel recently for a boys' trip out charter fishing. We drove through Thames on the way and there were beaucoup of vans and utes lined up awaiting transport to their new owners.

You noticed a point in time increase.

The overall point of the Clean Car Discount (and its sibling, the Clean Car Standard) is to create a long term downward trend of high emissions vehicles and an upward trend of zero emissions vehicles. Based on the stats, that seems to be working.

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wellygary

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#3079053 23-May-2023 15:45

Obraik:

You noticed a point in time increase.

The overall point of the Clean Car Discount (and its sibling, the Clean Car Standard) is to create a long term downward trend of high emissions vehicles and an upward trend of zero emissions vehicles. Based on the stats, that seems to be working.

Although there is the potential for perverse outcomes if the standards move ahead of vehicle availability,

Its not so much of an issue for New,

But with 1/2 the fleet entries in most years being used vehicles from Japan, if emissions standards get to far ahead of those 10 years ago in Japan, you will see a price spike, and then a subsequent holding on of used vehicles and an overall aging of the NZ fleet

Obraik

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#3079062 23-May-2023 17:15

wellygary:

Although there is the potential for perverse outcomes if the standards move ahead of vehicle availability,

Its not so much of an issue for New,

But with 1/2 the fleet entries in most years being used vehicles from Japan, if emissions standards get to far ahead of those 10 years ago in Japan, you will see a price spike, and then a subsequent holding on of used vehicles and an overall aging of the NZ fleet

People holding onto their older vehicles rather than replacing them with an imported used ICE vehicle would still be a downward trend, assuming zero emission vehicles are taking up a larger portion of the new car market.

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MikeAqua

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#3079356 24-May-2023 12:48

Obraik:

You noticed a point in time increase.

The overall point of the Clean Car Discount (and its sibling, the Clean Car Standard) is to create a long term downward trend of high emissions vehicles and an upward trend of zero emissions vehicles. Based on the stats, that seems to be working.

Maybe... vehicles are durable items. All those recently imported vehicles are still a part of the NZ fleet along with most of the vehicles their owners replaced. Given the average age of NZ's fleet those vehicles are here for ~20 years. At the moment it's hard to disentangle policy impacts, popularity and supply chain issues for all sorts of vehicles.

We'll see the true picture emerge over the next 5 years, assuming the policy settings don't change radically. IMO the coming-of-age moment for EVs in NZ will be when the govt decides the RUC revenue from them is too much to forgo. Currently that's April next year. It may be extended. The revenue forgone is just couple of percent of total RUC.

Mike

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