The Case For Concrete Roads

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#3311659 21-Nov-2024 21:45

Looking at some of the roller compacted construction methods on YouTube many appeared to be unjointed and continuous. It does seem unlikely.

Taking a look at the roller compacted concrete pilot road in Arthur Porter Drive Hamilton finished earlier this year some kind of regular jointing is visible.

Might be expansion joints cut after construction and filled with compound because those sections look super short.

MadEngineer

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#3311664 21-Nov-2024 22:37

This video demonstrates it quite well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cKWwI3Ys70

And this, in the UK:
Driving Experience on M25 Concrete Section | TikTok

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

gzt

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#3311673 21-Nov-2024 23:02

Constructed in the mid-80s apparently being replaced this year..

Woking News and Mail: Work to reduce noise from the concrete surface of the M25 between Junction 10 and 11 have started. The fitting of NGCS (Next Generation Concrete Surface) on the motorway began after a trial of four new potential surfaces was carried out over two years on the M1.

..tales of woe and misery within

concordnz

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#3311718 22-Nov-2024 09:03

There is definitely a place for them in Cities, Particularly Intersections in industrial areas, where heavy loads a stopping and turning - you will often see hollows where wheels come to a stop under braking (these are dangerous then in wet night, as they fill with water and look like smooth road), and consistent turning of heave traffic at same intersections can continously cut up our soft tar. - In these environments, Concrete is wayy better.

old3eyes

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#3311721 22-Nov-2024 09:13

Here in Tauranga they replaced a peace of traditional road in Totara Street with concrete. A bit nosier than the old tar sealed but the council sees the benefit that it won't need to be ripped up every few years and resealed due to trucks using it. The worst thing you can do is lay concrete and then seal it requiring constant maintenance. I'm all in favor or concrete roads due to longevity providing you maintain the joints.

Regards,

Old3eyes

Handsomedan

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#3311726 22-Nov-2024 09:30

The average driveway and footpath is a buckled, broken mess.

I understand that concrete roads will be stronger, but in Auckland especially, the land is constantly shifting. Surely something more flexible would be preferable (i.e. high quality Tar Seal).

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tieke

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#3311741 22-Nov-2024 10:06

While I can understand the concrete industry being keen to get even a small portion of the billions and billions of dollars that the government has promised to spend on roads, I am surprised at the amount of coverage their "report" has gained across various NZ digital platforms and publications - obviously their social media director is doing a lot of good work.

As mentioned on this reddit thread, unless it’s a corridor with very high heavy vehicle volumes, the numbers just don't stack up. Someone else pointed out that traditionally "concrete roads last about 2 or 3 times as long but costs 4 times as much", are more expensive to make changes to and are noisier. More to the point, NZTA are clear on why we don't use them:

"Although concrete roads were built in New Zealand between World War One and World War Two, they are currently not being used because:

they are difficult to maintain where services such as water, gas and sewers are located underneath
they do not handle the long-term earth movements to which New Zealand is susceptible very well
they are more expensive than asphaltic concrete
they tend to be more noisy than asphaltic concrete without a noise-absorbing surfacing.
The volume of traffic on our highways means the pavements do deteriorate with time and sometimes need re-strengthening. How often depends on the road, but they typically last for between 20 and 50 years. We usually recycle the existing base course layer with additional new material."

Then when the topic starter went conspiracy-theorist "of course NZTA are ignoring concrete, they want to invoice as much as possible", user exDee pointed out:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, NZTA gets budget for road maintenance assigned to them by the government as a crown entity. They don't invoice the government. They have their own road testing location in christchurch to research and compare what's available for the materials used for road construction: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-composition/road-pavements/captif/

With that budget the overwhelming majority of this maintenance is subcontracted to various commercial firms. You can even see who on this map:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/highways-information-portal/technical-disciplines/network-outcomes-contracts/resources-and-manuals/noc-supplier-maps/

These commercial entities invoice NZTA for these contracts. And given they have limited budget, it's in NZTAs interest to issue contracts to whoever can get the job done with the best balance of quality and value. They absolutely dont get this right all the time, but often its because of limited budget where only a patch job is funded and not replacing an entire section to prevent potholes reforming. Aside from maintenance decisions, potholes are increasing due to severe weather, which NZTA have identified as a major reason for the uptick in them.

As for the rest of your questions, I don't know the answer to them but given NZTA have an interest to keep maintenance cost down, they would do it if it made sense to. They have an entire agency of people with expertise in roading projects and related activities such as maintenance. If there was a silver bullet in switching to concrete then they would have done it at least in some locations.

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old3eyes

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#3311872 22-Nov-2024 14:53

Handsomedan:

The average driveway and footpath is a buckled, broken mess.

I understand that concrete roads will be stronger, but in Auckland especially, the land is constantly shifting. Surely something more flexible would be preferable (i.e. high quality Tar Seal).

Most of Auckland's main roads were concrete each side of the tram tracks. They are still there now with a layer of seal over them. I remember going up the New North Road as recent as 2014 ish and they were scraping the seal off the concrete to redo it yet again.

Regards,

Old3eyes

wellygary

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#3311896 22-Nov-2024 16:20

tieke:

While I can understand the concrete industry being keen to get even a small portion of the billions and billions of dollars that the government has promised to spend on roads, I am surprised at the amount of coverage their "report" has gained across various NZ digital platforms and publications - obviously their social media director is doing a lot of good work.

NZ (and Oz) are some of the largest users of Chipseal roads in the world, precisely because asphalt was seen as too expensive, the chances of moving to even more expensive concrete seems slim.....

Scott3

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#3311902 22-Nov-2024 16:31

cddt:

mattwnz:

Well they did increase the truck weight by up to 20% when they were last in, which seems to have resulted in extra wear and damage to the roads. You can often see ruts in worn roads now due to truck tyres which I don't recall ever seeing before. Concrete may fix that but

"The damage done to roads is not directly equivalent to the extra weight of a vehicle on it, but rather equates to what is known as the 'Fourth Power Rule'. As the weight on the road from each axle of a truck increases, the amount of damage done to the road increases by the fourth power. This means that a 20% increase in axle weight results in more than double the road damage."

There has been a big push to have heaps of axle's on trucks. Don't assume that a 20% heavier truck has the same axle count as a lighter truck.

All the 50MAX Proforma designs have 9 or 10 axles.

www.nzta.govt.nz/commercial-driving/high-productivity/50max/50max-information-for-operators-and-manufacturers/50max-proforma-designs/

tweake

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#3311904 22-Nov-2024 16:39

nzkc:

And I stopped being interested at "commissioned by Concrete New Zealand". Too much bias here.

it just like "nz houses have to much insulation" etc, so they can make a quick buck at the expense of the taxpayer. every industry at the moment is putting their hand out like they have national by the balls. even in my own industry we have people trying to get the govt to implement plans so they can rip off taxpayers (don't worry no ones letting that happen).

Scott3

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#3311907 22-Nov-2024 16:50

gzt:

Transport Minister Simeon Brown launched "The Case For Concrete Roads" report this morning commissioned by Concrete New Zealand and apparently an update of several previous reports:

Scoop: The Case for Concrete Roads was launched this morning by Transport Minister Simeon Brown. The report says concrete roads are on average 17 per cent cheaper over whole-of-life, reduce embodied carbon in roading and significantly reduce the cost and frequency of road maintenance. The report by consultancy Infometrics, commissioned by Concrete New Zealand, builds on reports from 2013, 2018 and 2020, to present a compelling case for the use of concrete in roading.

There is a pilot RCC Roller Compacted Concrete road you can try out on a section of Hamilton's Arthur Porter Drive finished earlier this year.

I'm guessing a concrete surface will initially use more sand than an asphalt surface. Initially that may mean an increase in unpopular sand mining.

In general this is highly concerning.

Ministers should not be launching lobby group campaigns / documents, or picking technical winners.

If they have concerns about sub-optimal technologies being selected, or have identified an area for improvement, they are able to commission independent technical evaluations either within government or externally.

---------------

On concrete roads, Boston road in Auckland is concrete if anybody wants to try one out (either on street view or in person, but note it is currently impacted by construction projects)

I have driven extensively on them overseas.

As a general rule, concrete roads cost more, but last longer. The exact balance is often debated, but one need to be willing to carry the higher up front cost to even start that debate. In general the NZ roading network seems to favor cheaper up front solutions (Asphalt is better and longer lasting than chip seal, but we use the latter a heap).

Ride comfort is generally worse than sealed road's.

fastbike

204 posts

Master Geek

#3312002 22-Nov-2024 20:39

rb99:

I'd imagine the report doesn't mention how much concrete production contributes to CO2 emissions.

Save on maintenance, reduce truck weights by 20%, might even get a bit more on the railways, but then thats why the roading industry 'donates' to politicians I suppose, to prevent such madness...

You nailed it. Way too much carbon emissions in our current transport system, and way too much gravy in the political donations.

Piggy Muldoon's transport minister was a trucking fella and started the rort. That's almost 50 years ago - most readers will be going, "who" ?

Otautahi Christchurch

Handle9

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#3312006 22-Nov-2024 21:26

I’d be interested in hearing from @benoire on this as someone who has actual experience with designing roading projects.

fastbike

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#3312073 22-Nov-2024 22:50

Scott3:
There has been a big push to have heaps of axle's on trucks. Don't assume that a 20% heavier truck has the same axle count as a lighter truck.

All the 50MAX Proforma designs have 9 or 10 axles.

www.nzta.govt.nz/commercial-driving/high-productivity/50max/50max-information-for-operators-and-manufacturers/50max-proforma-designs/

Crikey, NZTA has long been captured by the trucking lobby. Extra axles might spread the weight slightly but introduced additional wear on the pavement when turning as the non steering axles rip the surface laterally. We see this damage on local roads all the time.

As a taxpayer. quite frankly I'm sick of subsidising the likes of Booths etc. At least Mainfreight are honest and are asking for better access to rail for linehaul operations.

Otautahi Christchurch

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