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Benoire
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  #3312157 23-Nov-2024 12:44
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Handle9: I’d be interested in hearing from @benoire on this as someone who has actual experience with designing roading projects.

 

Howdy folks!

 

Ironically I have just tasked my engineering team with looking at concrete roads again to see if there is value in developing some rules around the use of concrete on certain types of road/usage e.g. bus/freight lanes, bus interchanges etc.

 

So a breif basis of road pavement/surface design for Auckland - The stuff that transport operates on consists of 3 distinct manmade layers (sub-base, basecourse and surfacing) on a natural ground formation with a minimum defined strength (CBR). 

 

  • Sub-base is generally a GAP type product (65mm) and this is to bring the strength (CBR) of the ground up to around 20-30%
  • Basecourse:

     

    • cementiously bound AP40/M4 spec aggregate (increased CBR and various other engineering advantages at the cost of increased construction cost and time)
    • unbound (laid and rolled AP40/M4 spec aggregate but not hydraulically locked together so only useful on lower volume roads with low heavy vehicles)
    • Asphalt - generallly laid as structural AC and this is the best hardest wearing product as long as subgrade is good - also the most expensive.
  • Surfacing:

     

    • Chipseal - cold emulsion or hot applied bitumen seal coat with roadchip sprayed on top - essneitally provides a waterproof membrane and skid resistance from the chip - generally used on unbound road pavements.
    • Asphaltic - either as part of an Structual AC system or a thin surface course with product defined based on ESA and other stuff.

Chipseal is 1/4 of the cost of Asphalt but lasts about 1/2 the time so it works out, on an average road <10000 vehciles per day and 5% HCV, as the cheapest option long term with full asphalt being reserved for roads >10K vpd or larger HCV %ages.

 

So to the concrete conversation - in the standard pavement makeup concrete would replace the base course and surfacing layers and has a lower requirement for CBR from the formation.  Concrete has the advantage of spanning softspots in the ground, is hard wearing, long life and highly resistant to heat damage (environment and vehicle), potholes, rutting etc. if intact and built correctly (expansion/conctraction jointing and controlled crack jointing at defined points).  Its major distadvantages have been construction time, reinforcemen needs, noise generation and once cracked the failures propegate fast across the surface leading to massive failure and time/cost to fix.

 

With the use of polymer fibre reinforcement in concrete the polymer is dosed at the batching plant to the right amount and can achieve the same strength increases as a 20mm high tensile steel reinforcement could, but can be cut through with a diamond saw without issue.  This negates a major problem with concrete with respect to additional work, utility placement etc. 

 

However all of this doesn't negate the major problem with concrete which is time to construction (gotta acheive that 7 day min strength for use), ride quality or the noise which is considerable as concrete has no sound dampening properties - UK got around this by building composite pavements, concrete roadbase and asphalt wearing course.

 

Noise and ride quality cannot be overcome really without using an asborbancy layer like the UK do with the composite pavement but we're looking in to dry mixed concrete which only needs ~72 hours to cure for use and can be laid like a leanmix concrete so no slumping or issues on steeper grades.

 

So why would I, as the head of engineerinng and design for Auckland Transport, consider concrete?  Well we're struggling with the HPMV trucks which drag their rear axles leading to lots of shear in an asphalt surface and therefore failure, the electric buses are just heavy and pounding the network on the frequent network routes and the increased expecation of hot weather days is going to cause havoc causing bitument to soften.  Concrete pavements can offer advantages in these areas and so if we target the correct lane / corridor then it may work as fibre reinforced concrete is not far of the cost of asphalt and with the massively longer design life will lead to whole of life savings that are quite considerable.

 

concrete is not a fit for all roads pavement and for all situtions but its something we need to consider, espeically as we're about to publish some work on low carbon concrete which effecively puts the emission to the floor and makes it highly viable against asphalt with RAP (recycled asphalt) from a sustainability perspective.. 

 

some random rumblings on a saturday am :-)




tweake
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  #3312175 23-Nov-2024 13:50
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Benoire:

 

 

 

With the use of polymer fibre reinforcement in concrete the polymer is dosed at the batching plant to the right amount and can achieve the same strength increases as a 20mm high tensile steel reinforcement could, but can be cut through with a diamond saw without issue.  This negates a major problem with concrete with respect to additional work, utility placement etc. 

 

 

the ramblings are appreciated. 

 

are you talking just fibers (typically used for crack mitigation) or polymer/glass fiber rods which go in place of rebar? i can't imagen steel in a road way would go well. a road spalling would be dangerous quickly.

 

and with RCC ?

 

what happens to the overall cost once the road needs to be cut up for services or layout changes? 


Benoire
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  #3312183 23-Nov-2024 14:33
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tweake:

 

the ramblings are appreciated. 

 

are you talking just fibers (typically used for crack mitigation) or polymer/glass fiber rods which go in place of rebar? i can't imagen steel in a road way would go well. a road spalling would be dangerous quickly.

 

and with RCC ?

 

what happens to the overall cost once the road needs to be cut up for services or layout changes? 

 

 

I'm talking about this sort of product: Strux 90/40 which I used in much of the roadways around Kings Cross Central in London when I was involved in the design and build of that massive regeneration area.  It can only replace steel on ground bearing slabs, not vertical or structures likely to need to resist bending moments.. yes it also manages shrinkage cracking but we calculated and demonstrated that that product could also manage the equivelent tensile steel requirements for up to a 20mm bar.

 

Polymer replacement for steel also does manage spalling of the concrete which a road in Essex (UK) suffered from where by the steel was exposed due to wear and, as the road was private, it caused rust formation on the steel which broke up the surface leading to further failure etc.  Polymers do not suffer any of this plus to replace work or cut concrete its just a matter of scabbling off the exposed concrete to bring more polymer to the surface and then pour in more fibre reinforced concrete in to the gap and let it cure.. will bond to the exposed edges and the fibres and remove the need for dowling to transfer the loads.

 

What do you mean by RCC? Recycled Crushed Concrete or Reinforced?  I was supposed to be on the panel at future Roads in Hamiton to discuss Recycled aggregates but couldn't make it so Recycled crushed is the only thing I am aware off with that acronym.

 

With cost, concrete is not vastly different to asphalt in terms of cost per cubic metre except concrete takes longer to cure so from an operational perspective traffic management costs increase along with delays due to the inability to open the site up - if you lay concrete then you need to be confident that it will last long enough to offset the overall costs of disruption including utility replacement and new service connection. 




gzt

gzt

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  #3312186 23-Nov-2024 14:38
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Benoire: concrete is not a fit for all roads pavement and for all situtions but its something we need to consider, espeically as we're about to publish some work on low carbon concrete which effecively puts the emission to the floor and makes it highly viable against asphalt with RAP (recycled asphalt) from a sustainability perspective..

 

Thanks for that technical perspective.

 

Carbon is the biggest challenge for long term sustainability and it is good to see it is an important factor in decision making.

 

Sand mining is an environmental sustainability concern most places in the world now. A comparative for the different construction methods and lifetime sand use/source would be an interesting paper. Likewise polymer reinforcing in concrete with microplastic release into the environment when recycled using some methods. With polymer reinforcing use increasing in concrete construction some form of regulation will be needed around recycling to avoid microplastic release resulting from incorrect applications.


tweake
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  #3312188 23-Nov-2024 14:47
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Benoire:

 

I'm talking about this sort of product: Strux 90/40 

 

What do you mean by RCC? Recycled Crushed Concrete or Reinforced?  I was supposed to be on the panel at future Roads in Hamiton to discuss Recycled aggregates but couldn't make it so Recycled crushed is the only thing I am aware off with that acronym.

 

 

just fibers, i have used that before. a bit of a furry finish but driving over it takes all that off over time. tho replacing 20mm bar sounds interesting. i can't remember if we still had rebar in it as well.

 

RCC = roller compacted concrete. a notable use of its was on the orville dam spillway repair.


Benoire
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  #3312189 23-Nov-2024 14:53
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gzt:

 

Thanks for that technical perspective.

 

Carbon is the biggest challenge for long term sustainability and it is good to see it is an important factor in decision making.

 

Sand mining is an environmental sustainability concern most places in the world now. A comparative for the different construction methods and lifetime sand use/source would be an interesting paper. Likewise polymer reinforcing in concrete with microplastic release into the environment when recycled using some methods. With polymer reinforcing use increasing in concrete construction some form of regulation will be needed around recycling to avoid microplastic release resulting from incorrect applications.

 

 

Indeed, I work closely with our Chief Scientist who is tasked with delivery our sustainability improvements and microplastics is one of those nasty things that we are learning more about (plasticosis(?) in sea birds recently identified - scaring of the throat due to plastics) and how we manage this.  In terms of concrete pavements that are reinforced with polymer this is what we are going to be looking into as part of this new peice of work; how do we ensure that the polymers, over the expected design life and surface wear, are not exposed.  Now tyre and brake wear is far more signifcant than polymer wear but nontheless it doesn't mean we shouldn't control it... in some cases laying blocks or asphalt over the top will solve that... in other cases, unreinforced may be better.

 

Dry mixed, unreinforced concrete laid and rolled like asphalt could be a winner - similar to Tauranga - but I'm reserving judgment until I've met with Tauranga City Council and the contractor and evaluated what they've done.

 

In terms of sand - Syndney has just replaced sand with crushed recycled glass in their asphalt mix and it works well but we've got alternative, higher uses for the glass collected so sand is still used but our suppliers are working on alternatives.. e.g. finely crushed slag from the steel works.


Benoire
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  #3312190 23-Nov-2024 14:56
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tweake:

 

just fibers, i have used that before. a bit of a furry finish but driving over it takes all that off over time. tho replacing 20mm bar sounds interesting. i can't remember if we still had rebar in it as well.

 

RCC = roller compacted concrete. a notable use of its was on the orville dam spillway repair.

 

 

Yeah in london we used a flame torch to burn the excess off - UK in 2008 didn't care about those pesky environmental concerns lol.

 

RCC as per my other post is the main target of the teams direction as it potentially has advantages in lay time, carbon usage, durabilty etc. but as its unreinforced I want to know the ESA loads predicted and its design life.


 
 
 

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Gurezaemon
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  #3312476 24-Nov-2024 20:19
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This type of concrete road looks like it is very easy to maintain. If you need to put in a pipe or cabling, lift up a slab, do the work, then put it back.

 

Road noise would be a problem if there were any neighbours. πŸ˜…

 

 





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Benoire
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  #3312520 25-Nov-2024 08:10
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Gurezaemon:

 

This type of concrete road looks like it is very easy to maintain. If you need to put in a pipe or cabling, lift up a slab, do the work, then put it back.

 

Road noise would be a problem if there were any neighbours. πŸ˜…

 

 

/shudder

 

A nightmare to operate unless there is load transfer between the slabs that I'm not seeing signs of.  They look 'easy' to pick up and move around but at the same time if the sub-base isn't strong or laid correctly/compacted/level then they're gonna rock the casbah all night long.  Could probably get some rhythmic dance going with the constant joint beats with our traffic volumes!


wellygary
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  #3312547 25-Nov-2024 09:14
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Gurezaemon:

 

This type of concrete road looks like it is very easy to maintain. If you need to put in a pipe or cabling, lift up a slab, do the work, then put it back.

 

Road noise would be a problem if there were any neighbours. πŸ˜…

 

 

Those are Soviet Era "PAG" pre-stressed pre-cast concrete panels,  They built airfields and roads in areas where the climate made it impossible/difficult/slow to pour enough concrete due to temperatures, 

 

https://www.airporttech.tc.faa.gov/DesktopModules/EasyDNNNews/DocumentDownload.ashx

 

 


tweake
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  #3315300 2-Dec-2024 20:40
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i forgot about this.

 

i talked to mate about it as he used to build them (@benoire he used to work for strabag) and he laughed. he thought it was hilarious. 

 

the main problems is our expansive soils (clay etc) and no one with the expertise. the amount of base work is huge, its critical it stays stable. its really only worth it over a 50 year life span. i doubt nz can think that far ahead and when you want to alter it, because of subdivisions etc, it removes any cost savings.  they would install extra pipe work so they can install extra services, but that increases the cost.

 

he wasn't sure about RCC as they never did it that way.

 

and then the road finish, well nz tarseal crews are 3rd world and would screw that up. so you would have the typical high maintenance cost for that.


Handle9
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  #3315310 2-Dec-2024 21:16
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Lol. Someone else who has never been to the third world.

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