Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#1802856 18-Jun-2017 08:25

Dingbatt: Maori comprehensively outplayed by the Lions. To me the forwards were the difference. That meaning tthe Lions leading all the stats 4 to 1. Except tackles, which the MABs did four times as many of. The Maoris also got penalised four times as much.

As a Chiefs supporter my question is now are Hames, Messam, Elliot, Kerr-Barlow, Ngatai, Lowe, McKenzie and Nanai-Williams available to play on Tuesday?

The ABs will still win next weekend.

It was. I also think the AB's will still win, but the Lions are improving energy game. They are playing away, in a put together team, they are getting there. I feel their strength is strategy. I gather MAB is a very nice team, but they were shut down totally.

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#1802866 18-Jun-2017 08:52

Usually when a Northern team comes here to play - have you ever travelled to Europe - man the body is so stuffed it's difficult to even think let alone play high intensity impact high strategy complicated 22 a side team sport. [The ABs seem to have to trouble but the others really struggle when they come to NZ]

Now that the Lions have been around for > 2 weeks by the time they play the ABs hopefully they will play a good game. I don't like watching one sided rugby matches.

I hope the ref is invisible too - I also hate controversial games, it doesn't feel right.

tdgeek

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#1802869 18-Jun-2017 08:58

joker97:

Usually when a Northern team comes here to play - have you ever travelled to Europe - man the body is so stuffed it's difficult to even think let alone play high intensity impact high strategy complicated 22 a side team sport. [The ABs seem to have to trouble but the others really struggle when they come to NZ]

Now that the Lions have been around for > 2 weeks by the time they play the ABs hopefully they will play a good game. I don't like watching one sided rugby matches.

I hope the ref is invisible too - I also hate controversial games, it doesn't feel right.

Same re refs. I dont get the issue with refs. Someone always complains. Either thats excuse making or its not. If it isn't excuse making, why are there not frequent ref inquiries post match when the ref supposedly interpreted the rules incorrectly, as the losing side seems to often say.

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#1804403 20-Jun-2017 22:10

For the second time in 3 days the Lions completely outclassed their opposition. It may have been Lions B against Chiefs B but the gulf between the teams was there for all to see. Evidence of a team starting to gel.
I can't understand why Messam and Elliot were available after the MABs game, but McKenzie, Lowe, Kerr-Barlow, Ngatai, etc weren't. The Chiefs fans who paid good money to attend the match will be bitterly disappointed, I hope the Hurricanes fare better next week.
I don't see the ABs being driven off the ball so easily. Hope the weather is fine though.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

sonyxperiageek

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#1804405 20-Jun-2017 22:22

The All Blacks will be a lot better lol.

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tdgeek

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#1804427 21-Jun-2017 06:20

sonyxperiageek:

The All Blacks will be a lot better lol.

They certainly will, but the stats in the MAB and Chiefs games were heavily skewed to BIL. They seem adept at nullifying these teams, shutting them down. Whatever BIL plan to do against the AB's, I'm sure they have some strategies that are under wraps and they will try. With the consistent improvement so far, I'd be surprised the the AB's were dominant. I expect them to win, but it might be a tough, chess like grind. Not high scoring and not a large margin.

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#1804428 21-Jun-2017 06:30

The Chiefs were always going to be in for a hard night when their lineout struggled early for no apparent reason. They really missed Retallick (as would the AB's). As a supporter, it was frustrating to call that a Chiefs team when they didn't have half/most of their starting lineup.

They lacked go-forward pretty much the whole night, in large part due to the Lions flat rush defence but I think also in part to just being fatigued due to the defensive effort they had to put in as a result of giving away possession with unforced errors at lineout and with handling.

I was not particularly impressed with the Lions, although at least after they choked the life out of the Chiefs, they capitalized with some tries. The Lions are still being allowed to just kill the ball i.e. someone will flop over the ball to slow it down.. not supporting their body weight or trying to win possession, but they will do it just for a couple of seconds and not be penalized as they would be in super rugby. That is also frustrating to watch. It will have to be a massive game from our pack/tight five if we want to combat that and get quick ball.

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tdgeek

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#1804430 21-Jun-2017 06:43

blair003:

The Chiefs were always going to be in for a hard night when their lineout struggled early for no apparent reason. They really missed Retallick (as would the AB's). As a supporter, it was frustrating to call that a Chiefs team when they didn't have half/most of their starting lineup.

They lacked go-forward pretty much the whole night, in large part due to the Lions flat rush defence but I think also in part to just being fatigued due to the defensive effort they had to put in as a result of giving away possession with unforced errors at lineout and with handling.

I was not particularly impressed with the Lions, although at least after they choked the life out of the Chiefs, they capitalized with some tries. The Lions are still being allowed to just kill the ball i.e. someone will flop over the ball to slow it down.. not supporting their body weight or trying to win possession, but they will do it just for a couple of seconds and not be penalized as they would be in super rugby. That is also frustrating to watch. It will have to be a massive game from our pack/tight five if we want to combat that and get quick ball.

For sure, the Chiefs were depleted, and it was a B team from BIL, most of which wont be in the test team. Not a lot to take forward the Saturday, apart from the tactical side. Re slowing it down, yes, thats a tactic that they are doing, and I guess as long as its not to penalty level, its a tactic. But an interesting read on the blocking, aka cheating that thrives in NZ rugby.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/93902278/lions-tour-mark-reason-cheating-off-the-ball-in-new-zealand-rugby-has-reached-epidemic-level

IIRC, Mark Reason seemed to be very biased towards NZ rugby, so I was surprised to read this from him. From what you said, and the issues of complaining about refs when a team loses, there seems to be a need to sort out these rules, apply them consistently, and lets watch rugby, rather than spoiling play.

blair003

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#1804432 21-Jun-2017 07:07

Yeah I saw the penalty where the Lions put the ball in the air and a Chiefs player went back and he was not running a line towards the ball. But if he is running a line back to get in a support position for someone who is catching the ball, is that illegal? I don't think so- unless you have changed your line? Perhaps he was too obvious in changing his line. Also if he was running a line towards the ball rather than a line to be in support, in my view that is more likely to be an obstruction.

It's also not illegal to run next to/behind a player with the ball to be in support, even if you are obstructing a would-be defender. You see that quite often. And of course, we have the blatantly obvious but for some reason legal obstruction that is a rolling maul.

I don't follow Mark Reason but it just seems like a normal modern clickbait artist as far as I can tell. Normally that would be pro-NZ stuff I guess, but whatever generates comments/discussion is what he would be writing.

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#1804433 21-Jun-2017 07:28

blair003:

Yeah I saw the penalty where the Lions put the ball in the air and a Chiefs player went back and he was not running a line towards the ball. But if he is running a line back to get in a support position for someone who is catching the ball, is that illegal? I don't think so- unless you have changed your line? Perhaps he was too obvious in changing his line. Also if he was running a line towards the ball rather than a line to be in support, in my view that is more likely to be an obstruction.

It's also not illegal to run next to/behind a player with the ball to be in support, even if you are obstructing a would-be defender. You see that quite often. And of course, we have the blatantly obvious but for some reason legal obstruction that is a rolling maul.

I don't follow Mark Reason but it just seems like a normal modern clickbait artist as far as I can tell. Normally that would be pro-NZ stuff I guess, but whatever generates comments/discussion is what he would be writing.

There were two blocks he saw, one he warned, the next he penalised. As to Reason, when I see his articles its always NZ rugby fan boy stuff, so thats what I found surprising. Like many things in rugby, its not always black and white, but his article does paint a picture that NZ rugby plays this type of game, whether that be cheating or pushing the limits, but if its blocking, its blocking. Play the ball, not the player. I gather its same refs for this weekend except TMO, so AB's need to be a bit careful

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#1804612 21-Jun-2017 13:15

tdgeek:

For sure, the Chiefs were depleted, and it was a B team from BIL, most of which wont be in the test team. Not a lot to take forward the Saturday, apart from the tactical side. Re slowing it down, yes, thats a tactic that they are doing, and I guess as long as its not to penalty level, its a tactic. But an interesting read on the blocking, aka cheating that thrives in NZ rugby.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/93902278/lions-tour-mark-reason-cheating-off-the-ball-in-new-zealand-rugby-has-reached-epidemic-level

IIRC, Mark Reason seemed to be very biased towards NZ rugby, so I was surprised to read this from him. From what you said, and the issues of complaining about refs when a team loses, there seems to be a need to sort out these rules, apply them consistently, and lets watch rugby, rather than spoiling play.

In sport everybody cheats. If you get penalised, it's illegal. If you don't get penalised, it's ruled in your favour. If you lose, you didn't cheat.

Whether it's doping or electric motors in cycling, listening to your opponents, tripping, going out to hurt your opponent's star players, acting out for a penalty/card, losing on purpose, makes sport ambiguous.

On the other hand, people pay to watch the ABs play. Do they pay to watch Japan beat South Africa? So as long as the ABs play well, everybody else also win. Does the IRB care? Not one bit.

blair003

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#1804627 21-Jun-2017 13:59

tdgeek:

As to Reason, when I see his articles its always NZ rugby fan boy stuff, so thats what I found surprising.

The four articles (prior to this one) I can find that mention NZ are titled:

Mark Reason: 'Despair and anger to grip NZ' after Lions' series win (25 April 2017)

Mark Reason: All Blacks versus England is going to be a rivalry for the ages (14 March 2017)

Mark Reason: Confidentiality on Patrick Tuipulotu's positive test damages New Zealand rugby (7 Feb 2017)

Mark Reason: We deserve better analysis from host of former All Blacks in TV rugby commentary (26 June 2016)

None of them seems to be NZ rugby fanboy stuff to me. Maybe some of his other articles are not showing when I search for him but yeah, seems to be doing what Chris Rattue does for the herald - try and write controversially.

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#1804632 21-Jun-2017 14:04

Mark reason does not write good things about NZ unless there's nothing else to write about.

blair003

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#1804637 21-Jun-2017 14:12

Clive Woodward: Sneaky trickster Warren Gatland wants penalty-fest test series

In the article Woodward says blocking is normal and Gatland mentioned it to try and get referees to be very strict on everything, slowing the game down and playing into the Lion's perceived goal kicking strength.

MikeAqua

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#1804644 21-Jun-2017 14:20

Reason should have had his hawk like eye open during Lions V Highlanders. There was breakout just before half time (the one with the tip pass) and a lions player pulled down Otago's second five who was in a supporting position but did not have the ball.

It was blatant professional foul which killed a promising breakout. But no-one noticed, not even the commentators. I suspect if the ref had seen it the yellow card would have come out.

Mike

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