Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Mad Scientist
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#2092061 17-Sep-2018 17:07

I trust the coaches to pick whoever is best for the team.

So whether he is in the next 2 world cups depends on if he is better than his peers or not. If you have another Dan Carter that can control the game and kick every goal, then he's in trouble. It really depends on who is going to challenge for the spot.

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#2092072 17-Sep-2018 17:33

tdgeek:

At any elite sport that 2% is disastrous. Thats the elite Federer type compared to the really good type.

AB's are a target, everyone knows their game, its predictable.

If everyone "knew" their game, they wouldn't have the winning record they do.

The AB's game is constantly evolving, it's something they pride themselves on. Very few teams can match that.

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#2092086 17-Sep-2018 17:39

tdgeek:

I don't think so. Having not a great game against a very very average RSA side is a 10 point win. They conceded 36 points, and the best side was fielded. We are dominating more then probably ever before in the modern game as we are excellent, the others have dropped, which makes this game more than a not a great game.

Missed passe, missed kicks happens an any game, its just a stat, but to allow 36 points, shows that either they played poorly in as far as managing the game, or the coaching/game plan was poor, or they got taken on and were not up to it/did not adapt.

Subtract 14 for intercepts, and we gave away 22 points. About our average of 21 per game according to @Handle9

21 isn't good enough in my view, but it's more than good enough when you score an average of 44 points. I want to see us back under 14 points a game personally.

The issue this game, was the attack wasn't sustainable, SA did an amazing job in defence, but if any of the errors had been omitted this game, we would have won. It's not a disaster. It's a disappointment, one I don't see repeated in the next 3 weeks.

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#2092117 17-Sep-2018 18:28

networkn:

tdgeek:

At any elite sport that 2% is disastrous. Thats the elite Federer type compared to the really good type.

AB's are a target, everyone knows their game, its predictable.

If everyone "knew" their game, they wouldn't have the winning record they do.

The AB's game is constantly evolving, it's something they pride themselves on. Very few teams can match that.

And that was the case, we were never near a 100% record as we are now, every match is a win, as the other international teams are rubbish. Scotland now ahead of AUS, Argentina beats AUS at home, the list goes on. When AUS and RSA were the top sides they once were, they were hard. Now, every match is 1-01 TAB odds, or RSA at 1-07, near enough to unbeatable. Thats why we have our unbeaten record of late. As to how much the other top sides try to maximise theor game or nullify ours. I don't know.

You are right, in fact no teams can match that, as Ronan O'Gara's piece implied. Saturday could have been RWC quarters or semi's.

Evolving, I guess. The number of He is great one week, then he had a shocker is a problem, thats what the commentators say about various players. Not just BB.

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#2092119 17-Sep-2018 18:33

networkn:

tdgeek:

I don't think so. Having not a great game against a very very average RSA side is a 10 point win. They conceded 36 points, and the best side was fielded. We are dominating more then probably ever before in the modern game as we are excellent, the others have dropped, which makes this game more than a not a great game.

Missed passe, missed kicks happens an any game, its just a stat, but to allow 36 points, shows that either they played poorly in as far as managing the game, or the coaching/game plan was poor, or they got taken on and were not up to it/did not adapt.

Subtract 14 for intercepts, and we gave away 22 points. About our average of 21 per game according to @Handle9

21 isn't good enough in my view, but it's more than good enough when you score an average of 44 points. I want to see us back under 14 points a game personally.

The issue this game, was the attack wasn't sustainable, SA did an amazing job in defence, but if any of the errors had been omitted this game, we would have won. It's not a disaster. It's a disappointment, one I don't see repeated in the next 3 weeks.

My question is, where did the errors come from? AB;s having an off week? That many players or plays? Thats a pretty bad week. Or the opponent pressured and forced errors or bad decisions. Intercepts can be unlucky, but you have to be there, they were, and a lot. They pressured. People have complimented RSA, but its all about the AB errors. Errors are rare when its easy as it often is, but when the other side takes you on, they cant really be called errors, they are forced errors

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#2092340 18-Sep-2018 09:39

tdgeek:

My question is, where did the errors come from? AB;s having an off week? That many players or plays? Thats a pretty bad week. Or the opponent pressured and forced errors or bad decisions. Intercepts can be unlucky, but you have to be there, they were, and a lot. They pressured. People have complimented RSA, but its all about the AB errors. Errors are rare when its easy as it often is, but when the other side takes you on, they cant really be called errors, they are forced errors

Which side are you arguing for? You seem to have argued both sides over the past few pages?

The AB's had an off night. It doesn't happen very often. I don't think that if not for that, that RSA would have won. I don't consider it half as unacceptable as you seem to. If it's an ongoing issue, then it needs addressing, but on the whole the number of matches each year that the AB's play poorly is much lower than it used to be. I don't think the RSA pressure was as great as some say it was. Yes they made a huge number of tackles and showed massive ticker, but I believe on almost any other night, the AB's would have still won.

I actually think it's good they lost, it will force the players to make an honest assessment of themselves.

I think the AB's were trying to be too clever by half, hadn't earned the right to go wide. They hadn't tired the defense the way they normally would.

It's also worth noting that Steve Hansen said they are trying new things and putting new structures in place. Some of that would account for the failures to execute skills.

All in all, I am not too unhappy with the loss.

BTW you should watch the post match interviews. They were very good. I am super impressed with some of the SA coaches and the comments they make.

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#2092346 18-Sep-2018 09:47

Seems like at least one of the regular pundit agrees that our defense needs work.

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tdgeek

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#2092354 18-Sep-2018 10:03

networkn:

tdgeek:

My question is, where did the errors come from? AB;s having an off week? That many players or plays? Thats a pretty bad week. Or the opponent pressured and forced errors or bad decisions. Intercepts can be unlucky, but you have to be there, they were, and a lot. They pressured. People have complimented RSA, but its all about the AB errors. Errors are rare when its easy as it often is, but when the other side takes you on, they cant really be called errors, they are forced errors

Which side are you arguing for? You seem to have argued both sides over the past few pages?

The AB's had an off night. It doesn't happen very often. I don't think that if not for that, that RSA would have won. I don't consider it half as unacceptable as you seem to. If it's an ongoing issue, then it needs addressing, but on the whole the number of matches each year that the AB's play poorly is much lower than it used to be. I don't think the RSA pressure was as great as some say it was. Yes they made a huge number of tackles and showed massive ticker, but I believe on almost any other night, the AB's would have still won.

I actually think it's good they lost, it will force the players to make an honest assessment of themselves.

I think the AB's were trying to be too clever by half, hadn't earned the right to go wide. They hadn't tired the defense the way they normally would.

It's also worth noting that Steve Hansen said they are trying new things and putting new structures in place. Some of that would account for the failures to execute skills.

All in all, I am not too unhappy with the loss.

BTW you should watch the post match interviews. They were very good. I am super impressed with some of the SA coaches and the comments they make.

The side I am not arguing for is the AB's lost, the world has ended its all their fault.

Everyone blames the AB's for the loss, little recognition of why they lost, they lost because the other team was in the way of how the AB's wanted to play, its that simple. But the rationale here is if we lose, its our fault. Some comments giving credit to RSA are genuine, some are just token.

How do 15 players plus the bench have an off night? Didn't turn up that interested and keen as usual? Sorry, but thats just an excuse to avoid saying that the other team was too good on the night. Sometimes we are so arrogant about our national team that we struggle to accept that we were beaten. Mistakes we made, physically or decisions, are heavily caused by what the opponent brings to the table. Not an off night. RSA had a plan that worked, we were unable to counter that. We always play better in most aspects of the game, but if the other side nullifies what it can, that helps a lot, and that's what they did.

RSA next time, we will know their potential plan, so we will coach for that. maybe they will try something else. Skills go a long way, but at an elite level, the brain does a lot also. Changing up the game plan and style, mixing it up, keeping the opposition guessing. They did that the other night, we were a step behind.

The best team on the night got beaten, by a team that used better strategy to narrow the skills gap

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#2092384 18-Sep-2018 10:31

tdgeek:The side I am not arguing for is the AB's lost, the world has ended its all their fault.

Everyone blames the AB's for the loss, little recognition of why they lost, they lost because the other team was in the way of how the AB's wanted to play, its that simple. But the rationale here is if we lose, its our fault. Some comments giving credit to RSA are genuine, some are just token.

How do 15 players plus the bench have an off night? Didn't turn up that interested and keen as usual? Sorry, but thats just an excuse to avoid saying that the other team was too good on the night. Sometimes we are so arrogant about our national team that we struggle to accept that we were beaten. Mistakes we made, physically or decisions, are heavily caused by what the opponent brings to the table. Not an off night. RSA had a plan that worked, we were unable to counter that. We always play better in most aspects of the game, but if the other side nullifies what it can, that helps a lot, and that's what they did.

RSA next time, we will know their potential plan, so we will coach for that. maybe they will try something else. Skills go a long way, but at an elite level, the brain does a lot also. Changing up the game plan and style, mixing it up, keeping the opposition guessing. They did that the other night, we were a step behind.

The best team on the night got beaten, by a team that used better strategy to narrow the skills gap

If BB had of kicked 4 out of six we would of probably won. If just one of those intercept passes didn't happen we would of likely won.

Then we wouldn't be having this conversation - we had a one off bad night is all and SA stepped up their game and good on them, they have been playing pretty terrible for a while now.

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#2092387 18-Sep-2018 10:44

clevedon:

tdgeek:The side I am not arguing for is the AB's lost, the world has ended its all their fault.

Everyone blames the AB's for the loss, little recognition of why they lost, they lost because the other team was in the way of how the AB's wanted to play, its that simple. But the rationale here is if we lose, its our fault. Some comments giving credit to RSA are genuine, some are just token.

How do 15 players plus the bench have an off night? Didn't turn up that interested and keen as usual? Sorry, but thats just an excuse to avoid saying that the other team was too good on the night. Sometimes we are so arrogant about our national team that we struggle to accept that we were beaten. Mistakes we made, physically or decisions, are heavily caused by what the opponent brings to the table. Not an off night. RSA had a plan that worked, we were unable to counter that. We always play better in most aspects of the game, but if the other side nullifies what it can, that helps a lot, and that's what they did.

RSA next time, we will know their potential plan, so we will coach for that. maybe they will try something else. Skills go a long way, but at an elite level, the brain does a lot also. Changing up the game plan and style, mixing it up, keeping the opposition guessing. They did that the other night, we were a step behind.

The best team on the night got beaten, by a team that used better strategy to narrow the skills gap

If BB had of kicked 4 out of six we would of probably won. If just one of those intercept passes didn't happen we would of likely won.

Then we wouldn't be having this conversation - we had a one off bad night is all and SA stepped up their game and good on them, they have been playing pretty terrible for a while now.

Ok! If the penalty 10 out was taken we would have won. But the problem still exists. We gave 34 points to a side we should have won by 20, as they, like many tier 1 nations are poor. SH stated the same, the issue was the points they scored. They scored them. I guess thats my issue here, its too biased. We lose, we make excuses why we were robbed. We weren't robbed. RSA didnt necessarily step up their game, they are not a good side, they used tactics and strategy very very well, we were lost and did not adapt. Why is up for debate, probably as its been too easy against too many poor sides, so we dont need to guard every door, just roll over them, 80 minutes will take care of the score. That's where we need to take stock. We are very good, but not that good. If a side steps up skill wise, and outplays us strategy wise, that's a real risk. There is a gap between us and all of them, its a decent gap, but its not because we are unbelievable, its because they are poor. They can improve more than we can as they are at a lower level

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#2092390 18-Sep-2018 10:46

Im out for a bit

Off night vs Out Strategised, that's where I will leave it

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#2092408 18-Sep-2018 11:02

Not one person here has claimed we were robbed. I have seen a TINY bit online about the ref not recognising the 8/9 were offside which would have given us a penalty under the sticks, but usually followed up by an acknowlegment it wasn't the difference.

You don't want to accept we had an off night, that's fine, most people will disagree. SA scored a couple of great tries and we missed tackles which allowed for that. I have already lamented our defense.

I am not arrogant about the AB's. I am realistic.

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#2092417 18-Sep-2018 11:23

networkn:

Not one person here has claimed we were robbed. I have seen a TINY bit online about the ref not recognising the 8/9 were offside which would have given us a penalty under the sticks, but usually followed up by an acknowlegment it wasn't the difference.

You don't want to accept we had an off night, that's fine, most people will disagree. SA scored a couple of great tries and we missed tackles which allowed for that. I have already lamented our defense.

I am not arrogant about the AB's. I am realistic.

Fair enough, I take all the rampant excuses as evidence of being robbed. But thats ok, All disagree with me, that's fine, we had an off night which is ok for a professional side.

Just as well we are not playing any good sides that's for real. Scotland is now above AUS in the rankings. ARG beats AUS at home. That's why its hard to judge how good we really are, there is no competition. This match may highlight that. But if our many errors and decisions were a result of a bad night at the office thats ok, I will stick to my opinion that even though RSA is not very good, and didn't really play at a new higher level, they played smart, pressured and exposed us into these errors and that gave them opportunities. Had we just got up and won, none of my comments would change. But I think then it would have been such a great match, we dug deep and got up type of thing. I feel we are exposed, and insulated by less than stellar tier 1 sides at the moment

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#2092422 18-Sep-2018 11:36

tdgeek: even though RSA is not very good, and didn't really play at a new higher level .......

You obviously didn't watch the previous games of SA vs Argentina then or vs Aussie. Those games and the game on Saturday of SA vs the AB's was like a night and day performance for them.

You should watch all the other teams games to get an idea.

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#2092425 18-Sep-2018 11:39

clevedon:

tdgeek: even though RSA is not very good, and didn't really play at a new higher level .......

You obviously didn't watch the previous games of SA vs Argentina then or vs Aussie. Those games and the game on Saturday of SA vs the AB's was like a night and day performance for them.

You should watch all the other teams games to get an idea.

Exactly this. They absoloutely played above the level they played against those teams. Even acknowledged by their coach.

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