Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2100619 3-Oct-2018 11:41

clevedon:

tdgeek:

clevedon:

tdgeek: There was no RWC in 2015, maybe check your information is up to date.

Proves my point.

How so?

You just said there was no RWC in 2015 - we won it!

LOL yes I know, responding to the 2016 comment, but wrote 2015 in error

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#2100620 3-Oct-2018 11:42

I believe if you are only referring to RWC then you should have said something like "The AB's have historically been labelled as RWC Chokers" (Which historically MAY have been true) rather than the more generalized "The AB's are chokers" which most definately ISN'T true.

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#2100623 3-Oct-2018 11:47

networkn:

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you in a thread, you give that response? Surely we are just as entitled to our opinions as you?

This isn't a fan club, but most Kiwi's who enjoy Rugby are probably AB's fans. The AB's get plenty of critisism and discussion here on their strengths, weaknesses and selection decisions. The reality is, that a loss isn't that big of a deal esp if it's "explainable" and there is a plan to fix it.

If losing becomes a habit, then questions get asked.

You are talking to me about how someone behaves when disagreeing???? You would be the most defensive person here, by a long way.

It is a fan club if comments about negatives are disliked. The only criticism of AB's or players (which is a lot oddly) is if we lose, then the daggers come out against our players, coaches, refs, everyone. For some reason we cannot lose, if we do, its a blame game. RSA won the last game there was very very little complementing their effort, what was there was generally a token gesture comment

Fan club, parochial, call it what you like. Its not objective

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#2100624 3-Oct-2018 11:48

clevedon:

tdgeek:

clevedon:

tdgeek: There was no RWC in 2015, maybe check your information is up to date.

Proves my point.

Ah yep, my mistake, he said 2016, I meant to say 2016.

He didn't say anything about a RWC in 2016.

He was talking about going unbeaten in 2016

Which is not relevant when I am discussing the RWC choking reputation

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#2100626 3-Oct-2018 11:51

tdgeek: The only criticism of AB's or players (which is a lot oddly) is if we lose, then the daggers come out against our players, coaches, refs, everyone. For some reason we cannot lose, if we do, its a blame game. RSA won the last game there was very very little complementing their effort, what was there was generally a token gesture comment

What ever, I've never read any of that here - except from you.

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#2100628 3-Oct-2018 11:51

networkn:

I believe if you are only referring to RWC then you should have said something like "The AB's have historically been labelled as RWC Chokers" (Which historically MAY have been true) rather than the more generalized "The AB's are chokers" which most definately ISN'T true.

I accept that. I said "AB's have always choked under pressure, they have that reputation in RWC's"

I was meaning always choked under pressure in RWC's, implying that it can happen. In specific reference to this BIG game even though its a dead rubber, as its also a one off big game

Wording should have been better, I accept that

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#2100630 3-Oct-2018 11:53

clevedon:

tdgeek: The only criticism of AB's or players (which is a lot oddly) is if we lose, then the daggers come out against our players, coaches, refs, everyone. For some reason we cannot lose, if we do, its a blame game. RSA won the last game there was very very little complementing their effort, what was there was generally a token gesture comment

What ever, I've never read any of that here - except from you.

I find that impossible to believe, but that's ok, I have broken the cardinal rule of this topic

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#2100633 3-Oct-2018 12:02

tdgeek:

You are talking to me about how someone behaves when disagreeing???? You would be the most defensive person here, by a long way.

I get defensive in regard to one particular recurring set of comments which I feel is unfair and untrue. The rest of the time, nope.

It is a fan club if comments about negatives are disliked. The only criticism of AB's or players (which is a lot oddly) is if we lose, then the daggers come out against our players, coaches, refs, everyone. For some reason we cannot lose, if we do, its a blame game. RSA won the last game there was very very little complementing their effort, what was there was generally a token gesture comment

Fan club, parochial, call it what you like. Its not objective

Actually a fan club is a group of fans on a particular team meeting/discussing their team. This exists here because the AB's are awesome. They weren't awesome in Wellington, and SA were the best I think they could have been. They won, and no doubts about it, but they won on the back of a poor AB's performance (When was the last time you saw the AB's leak 30 points?). If one of 10 things goes differently, despite SA's best efforts, they would have lost. That's not sour grapes or taking anything from SA, it's simply fact in my view. You are welcome to an opposing view.

Just because we choose to focus on AB's vs SA, doesn't mean we aren't capable of being objective.

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#2100687 3-Oct-2018 12:16

I don't agree that the ABs have even historically been chokers at RWCs (prior to 2011).

They won in 87, they were a dominant team in an amateur game.

In 1991, they were not the best team at the tournament.

In 1995, they should have won, and maybe they choked there. South Africa did what South Africa do, and played their hearts out. Never mind about 'Suzie'. The All Blacks team that day were definitely ill. How they got ill, we will never know, but they were beaten fair and square. Maybe they choked? Maybe not? It was an impressive SA team.

In 1999, again, a weak team historically. They won most of their games in 1999, but lost most of them in 1998. France did a 'France' on them. They would have been favourites to win the WC in NZers minds, but they are every time they play, and I don't know if they were favourites to win that tournament.

2003, badly coached IMO, and not good enough. Didn't choke. Got beaten by the better team. Out-coached, outsmarted, outplayed. I think England would have beaten them in the final that year if they had got over Australia.

2007, Choked. I don't think I can spin that any other way. They were definitely favourites going into the tournament, and France should have been a step on the way. They didn't adjust their game plan when it wasn't going their way, and France didn't let them in.

The overseas press love to call them chokers, mostly I think to get under our skin. They have been so dominant in the last 20-30 years, that it is called a choke when they miss out on the biggest prize. I think if anyone uses the choker tag before Japan next year, they are drawing a thin bow. I don't know what is going to happen in the WC next year, but at the moment it looks like there are two or three teams who can take it out (IRE, ENG, NZ). Also, never discount Australia (they were shock this time four years ago, and made the final in the subsequent WC). South Africa will be strong too. Hopefully.

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#2100691 3-Oct-2018 12:20

networkn:

tdgeek:

You are talking to me about how someone behaves when disagreeing???? You would be the most defensive person here, by a long way.

I get defensive in regard to one particular recurring set of comments which I feel is unfair and untrue. The rest of the time, nope.

It is a fan club if comments about negatives are disliked. The only criticism of AB's or players (which is a lot oddly) is if we lose, then the daggers come out against our players, coaches, refs, everyone. For some reason we cannot lose, if we do, its a blame game. RSA won the last game there was very very little complementing their effort, what was there was generally a token gesture comment

Fan club, parochial, call it what you like. Its not objective

Actually a fan club is a group of fans on a particular team meeting/discussing their team. This exists here because the AB's are awesome. They weren't awesome in Wellington, and SA were the best I think they could have been. They won, and no doubts about it, but they won on the back of a poor AB's performance (When was the last time you saw the AB's leak 30 points?). If one of 10 things goes differently, despite SA's best efforts, they would have lost. That's not sour grapes or taking anything from SA, it's simply fact in my view. You are welcome to an opposing view.

Just because we choose to focus on AB's vs SA, doesn't mean we aren't capable of being objective.

Disagree on point 1.

The AB's are far from perfect, despite Giffords best AB team in history he said after what 4 low end games once the legends of All Black history retired. When we lose its a blame game, not an objective evaluation. I try to see it for what it was, not to blame everyone for a rare AB's loss. Just today Crotty said we gave it to them as we didnt play our normal ruthless rugby (or words to that effect) Thats BS. You and the team and the coaches are out there for 80 minutes, and after that, Crotty decides thats the reason?? Why not actually play that game you are professionals. Does it take a week to realise that? Plain fact is RSA targeted AB's and it worked, we did not see that and did not react. They won.

As for the fan club, off course we are all fans, but if fanboyism overrules true fans discussing matters, its a waste of time, no different the the old days of Android vs Apple, same thing. But I tell you one thing I dont sit here and get upset and angry because someone has an opinion I disagree with, but to say something against the team raises so many hackles here, from some, not all, that a fan Club is my only conclusion

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#2100693 3-Oct-2018 12:22

Best this diversion be end of discussion

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#2100728 3-Oct-2018 12:36

tdgeek:

disagree on point 1.

That's ok, you are entitled to an incorrect view.

The AB's are far from perfect, despite Giffords best AB team in history he said after what 4 low end games once the legends of All Black history retired. When we lose its a blame game, not an objective evaluation. I try to see it for what it was, not to blame everyone for a rare AB's loss. Just today Crotty said we gave it to them as we didnt play our normal ruthless rugby (or words to that effect) Thats BS. You and the team and the coaches are out there for 80 minutes, and after that, Crotty decides thats the reason?? Why not actually play that game you are professionals. Does it take a week to realise that? Plain fact is RSA targeted AB's and it worked, we did not see that and did not react. They won.

As for the fan club, off course we are all fans, but if fanboyism overrules true fans discussing matters, its a waste of time, no different the the old days of Android vs Apple, same thing. But I tell you one thing I dont sit here and get upset and angry because someone has an opinion I disagree with, but to say something against the team raises so many hackles here, from some, not all, that a fan Club is my only conclusion

We blame the AB's. It's all we did. The losing team is always at fault, for failing to win. No-one has done anything to blame anyone BUT the AB's. That's objective. They failed to adapt, they failed to take their opportunities. That is the AB's fault and no-one elses. SA got repeated props here by many commenters for SA's outstanding defense (240 tackles I think from memory). The AB's can only control themselves, therefore you can say you admire the SA defense, but ultimately a poor night at the office was what lost it for the AB's.

In 2007 there was blaming the ref, and it's was partially the reason, but not the only reason. We drew the series against the Lions as a result of one of the most poor calls in Rugby refereing in a long time. Both sides felt robbed as a result.

I am not really sure what you want? A ticker tape parade for the Bok's?

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#2100746 3-Oct-2018 12:47

networkn:

tdgeek:

disagree on point 1.

That's ok, you are entitled to an incorrect view.

The AB's are far from perfect, despite Giffords best AB team in history he said after what 4 low end games once the legends of All Black history retired. When we lose its a blame game, not an objective evaluation. I try to see it for what it was, not to blame everyone for a rare AB's loss. Just today Crotty said we gave it to them as we didnt play our normal ruthless rugby (or words to that effect) Thats BS. You and the team and the coaches are out there for 80 minutes, and after that, Crotty decides thats the reason?? Why not actually play that game you are professionals. Does it take a week to realise that? Plain fact is RSA targeted AB's and it worked, we did not see that and did not react. They won.

As for the fan club, off course we are all fans, but if fanboyism overrules true fans discussing matters, its a waste of time, no different the the old days of Android vs Apple, same thing. But I tell you one thing I dont sit here and get upset and angry because someone has an opinion I disagree with, but to say something against the team raises so many hackles here, from some, not all, that a fan Club is my only conclusion

We blame the AB's. It's all we did. The losing team is always at fault, for failing to win. No-one has done anything to blame anyone BUT the AB's. That's objective. They failed to adapt, they failed to take their opportunities. That is the AB's fault and no-one elses. SA got repeated props here by many commenters for SA's outstanding defense (240 tackles I think from memory). The AB's can only control themselves, therefore you can say you admire the SA defense, but ultimately a poor night at the office was what lost it for the AB's.

In 2007 there was blaming the ref, and it's was partially the reason, but not the only reason. We drew the series against the Lions as a result of one of the most poor calls in Rugby refereing in a long time. Both sides felt robbed as a result.

I am not really sure what you want? A ticker tape parade for the Bok's?

Not surprised by that, says it all

Objective is about blaming the loser? It takes two to tango. So a losing side has a bad day at the office. Cannot possibly be that the winning side, brought a strategy that shut down parts of the AB's play or theme. No, can't be that.... You have confirmed what I read here from some, not all. Being a big fan is one thing, unashamed non objective bias is another. Fan Club stands. Its is for some, a club of fans. For others fanboyism

Ticker tape parade? Childish comment. I broke the rules here, that's patently clear

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#2100749 3-Oct-2018 12:54

tdgeek:

Objective is about blaming the loser? It takes two to tango. So a losing side has a bad day at the office. Cannot possibly be that the winning side, brought a strategy that shut down parts of the AB's play or theme. No, can't be that.... You have confirmed what I read here from some, not all. Being a big fan is one thing, unashamed non objective bias is another. Fan Club stands. Its is for some, a club of fans. For others fanboyism

Ticker tape parade? Childish comment. I broke the rules here, that's patently clear

Blaming anyone but the loser would be making excuses. How many times have you seen critism over the way fans reacted to the loss in 2007? SA got props for the way they played, but it's not enough according to you.

As a team/player, you can only control yourselves. That is who should get the blame for a loss.

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#2100751 3-Oct-2018 12:57

networkn:
clevedon:

tdgeek: AB's have always choked under pressure, they have that reputation in RWC's.

What a load of rubbish.

If we have ALWAYS choked under pressure we would have never won any close games in all of our history. We've won back to back World Cups with close games in the semi's and final.

Not to mention SO many games where we were behind 10 minutes from the end and came up to win. Think the final game of the season in 2016 where we went undefeated.

tdgeeks information seems about 10-12 years out of date.

That would have been true when Rod McQueen's team won every Blefisloe cup while Lomu's wing leaked tries like a bucket with no bottom.

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