Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2121177 6-Nov-2018 22:23

networkn:

So I suspect if they can't take the ideal team, they may pick a close to perfect one, and then those players that may be needed, may be in Japan "on holiday" at the same time :)

Presumably when they are there, the 31, you probably have some fringe players, who aren't officially part of the tournament who help run drills and practices and make up numbers for an A vs B type testing scenario?

Not sure I am making myself clear, but hopefully you get it.

They can have players in the country but they can't participate in team activities or stay at the hotel etc. The IRB isn't that stupid and access to the facilities is controlled by them.

That directly influences the makeup of the team. They pick their best team (ie 23 players) then have to have cover for any injury that happens close to match time as the 48 hour rule applies. They also need to have flexibility for game plans etc. Just because a player doesn't make the squad doesn't mean he won't start if they have an injury. Eg if Ben Smith blows his knee out George Bridge may be the player they have start as he can do the same type of job. If Smith is fit he will all but one game so you don't need a direct sub, just emergency cover. Naholo can provide that.

Harris is a classic, he may not be as good as some of the younger guys but he knows how to prepare, he understands the game plan and if he doesn't play it won't matter. If Taylor or Coles do a knee at the captains run he can step in and play at short notice and not hurt the side.

This is why they must have 5 props and 3 hookers - you can't safely field a team without 4 props and 2 hookers. Same reason all teams have 3 halfbacks, with the halfbacks work rate you need 2 in your playing team. Outside of prop, lock and wing they won't go much further than the guys they have used for the last 2 years unless there is injury. You can sub in props, locks and wings reasonably easily, the rest rely on combinations far more than those positions.

The team will look a bit like this, some of the starters/bench may move a bit but this is the side I think Hansen wants to play. Coles and Williams are the guys most at risk of going to bench and Lienert-Brown could maybe be on the bench.

Starting side

1 Moody

2 Coles

3 Franks

4 Retalick

5 Whitelock

6 Squire

7 Cane

8 Read

9 Smith

10 Barrett

11 Ioane

12 Williams

13 Goodhue

14 Smith

15 Mackenzie

Bench

16 Tu'inukuafe

17 Taylor

18 Laulala

19 Barrett

20 Savea

21 Perenara

22 Crotty

23 Mou'uga

Covering Players

24 Tu'ungafasi (can play loose or tight head)

25 Harris

26 Tuipolotu or Hemopo (they will need 3 players who can genuinely play lock against South Africa, Ireland and England, Savea and Squire both cover 8, Barrett or Hemopo cover 6)

27 Todd (All Blacks always want a 7 on the bench)

28 Tahuriorangi

29 Lienert-Brown (Can play 12 or 13)

30 Naholo (Wing cover, can play both sides)

31 Barrett (Fullback cover)

networkn

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#2122062 8-Nov-2018 11:05

Moody is gone for the season. That's most unfortunate.

Handle9

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#2122500 9-Nov-2018 06:28

The quality of rugby coverage really has improved exponentially from some outlets. Its not just the same old nonsense but real analysis of what teams are doing. This is a really interesting read.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2018/11/08/the-all-black-javelin-the-sonny-bill-attack/

The 1014 guys really are doing amazing stuff. The quality of their analysis is so much better than anything else out there. The production values of this aren't anywhere near what they do on skysport but the content is just awesome.

https://youtu.be/dxTNy-Co3aI

Handle9

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#2123466 11-Nov-2018 06:13

What a superb game. England were great in the first half. They dominated the ball for half an hour and played so very well. Barrett and Reid controlled the game. Reid made two great calls in similar positions, firstly to go for the try and then to take the points. He's taken a lot of greif and I hope he gets acknowledged for this one.

Barrett kicked really well from hand as well as making his goals. Retallick was a titan. It was also great to see the impact Coles made. He did all the dirty work, hit his lineout throws and was excellent. The forward did their normal truck of breaking the opposition around the 30 minute mark with long runs of play and grinding them. If a team is going to win the world cup they have to be able to match new zealands fitness.

Disappointed for Williams. He just can't seem to stay on the park. The English commentary didn't say why he went off.

England will be gutted but they were very good. They will be a threat next year, there are at least 4 genuine contenders for the world cup.

Edit: mobile locked up

throbb

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#2123524 11-Nov-2018 10:57

Handle9: What a superb game. England were great in the first half. They dominated the ball for half an hour and played so very well. Barrett and Reid controlled the game. Reid made two great calls in similar positions, firstly to go for the try and then to take the points. He's taken a lot of greif and I hope he gets acknowledged for this one.

Barrett kicked really well from hand as well as making his goals. Retallick was a titan. It was also great to see the impact Coles made. He did all the dirty work, hit his lineout throws and was excellent. The forward did their normal truck of breaking the opposition around the 30 minute mark with long runs of play and grinding them. If a team is going to win the world cup they have to be able to match new zealands fitness.

Disappointed for Williams. He just can't seem to stay on the park. The English commentary didn't say why he went off.

England will be gutted but they were very good. They will be a threat next year, there are at least 4 genuine contenders for the world cup.

Edit: mobile locked up

I'm getting way to old to watch these close games, but intentional season is something i look forward to every year.

England had all the ball for the first 30 min, but after that they never really looked like scoring again. The only thing that kept England in the game was some good scrambling defense and All Black handling errors, didn't see the final stats, but I expect to see the ABs well ahead in them all except turnovers/handling errors. Discipline was also improved, think I can count on one hand how many penalties the ABs gave away, which took away a lot of England's normal points. Guess I could complain about the ABs not playing a tighter game in those conditions, but i've learnt to accept that's the way they play.

Australia v Wales

What happens to Australia and South Africa when they tour up north? They seem to lose all thier ability to attack. AusvWales became a game of aerial ping pong, you would have thought that Aussies would have learnt when they played us that they are best when holding onto the ball, not kicking it away.

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#2123542 11-Nov-2018 12:06

Handle9:

networkn:

So I suspect if they can't take the ideal team, they may pick a close to perfect one, and then those players that may be needed, may be in Japan "on holiday" at the same time :)

Presumably when they are there, the 31, you probably have some fringe players, who aren't officially part of the tournament who help run drills and practices and make up numbers for an A vs B type testing scenario?

Not sure I am making myself clear, but hopefully you get it.

They can have players in the country but they can't participate in team activities or stay at the hotel etc. The IRB isn't that stupid and access to the facilities is controlled by them.

That directly influences the makeup of the team. They pick their best team (ie 23 players) then have to have cover for any injury that happens close to match time as the 48 hour rule applies. They also need to have flexibility for game plans etc. Just because a player doesn't make the squad doesn't mean he won't start if they have an injury. Eg if Ben Smith blows his knee out George Bridge may be the player they have start as he can do the same type of job. If Smith is fit he will all but one game so you don't need a direct sub, just emergency cover. Naholo can provide that.

Harris is a classic, he may not be as good as some of the younger guys but he knows how to prepare, he understands the game plan and if he doesn't play it won't matter. If Taylor or Coles do a knee at the captains run he can step in and play at short notice and not hurt the side.

This is why they must have 5 props and 3 hookers - you can't safely field a team without 4 props and 2 hookers. Same reason all teams have 3 halfbacks, with the halfbacks work rate you need 2 in your playing team. Outside of prop, lock and wing they won't go much further than the guys they have used for the last 2 years unless there is injury. You can sub in props, locks and wings reasonably easily, the rest rely on combinations far more than those positions.

The team will look a bit like this, some of the starters/bench may move a bit but this is the side I think Hansen wants to play. Coles and Williams are the guys most at risk of going to bench and Lienert-Brown could maybe be on the bench.

Starting side

1 Moody

2 Coles

3 Franks

4 Retalick

5 Whitelock

6 Squire

7 Cane

8 Read

9 Smith

10 Barrett

11 Ioane

12 Williams

13 Goodhue

14 Smith

15 Mackenzie

Bench

16 Tu'inukuafe

17 Taylor

18 Laulala

19 Barrett

20 Savea

21 Perenara

22 Crotty

23 Mou'uga

Covering Players

24 Tu'ungafasi (can play loose or tight head)

25 Harris

26 Tuipolotu or Hemopo (they will need 3 players who can genuinely play lock against South Africa, Ireland and England, Savea and Squire both cover 8, Barrett or Hemopo cover 6)

27 Todd (All Blacks always want a 7 on the bench)

28 Tahuriorangi

29 Lienert-Brown (Can play 12 or 13)

30 Naholo (Wing cover, can play both sides)

31 Barrett (Fullback cover)

Historically, the forwards on the bench are impact specialist positions other than the loosies, and the backs are all utility backs other than the specialist halfback.

Jogre

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#2123898 12-Nov-2018 08:48

throbb:

I'm getting way to old to watch these close games, but intentional season is something i look forward to every year.

England had all the ball for the first 30 min, but after that they never really looked like scoring again. The only thing that kept England in the game was some good scrambling defense and All Black handling errors, didn't see the final stats, but I expect to see the ABs well ahead in them all except turnovers/handling errors. Discipline was also improved, think I can count on one hand how many penalties the ABs gave away, which took away a lot of England's normal points. Guess I could complain about the ABs not playing a tighter game in those conditions, but i've learnt to accept that's the way they play.

Australia v Wales

What happens to Australia and South Africa when they tour up north? They seem to lose all thier ability to attack. AusvWales became a game of aerial ping pong, you would have thought that Aussies would have learnt when they played us that they are best when holding onto the ball, not kicking it away.

Agree, was a fantastic game even watching replay and dodging comments from the wife around controversy etc before the replay was finished.

England was making all of the play in the first 30 and executing their gameplan well. All Blacks always found an English player with their kicks whereas England found territory. England were very keen to go into the sheds when the ABs scored, dawdled back to the kick-off before fluffing it and conceding another 3 instead of closing out the first half. Didn't look too much like closing it out and unfortunately the correctly disallowed try will cause many to overlook that they didn't take the game far enough away from the All Blacks. Perhaps with the scorelines in 6 Nations they thought 15 points might be enough? It nearly was but they turned down an easy penalty to go for touch when their lineout was severely wobbly.

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#2123901 12-Nov-2018 08:51

I heard England's *try should have stood.

This is one of the things about these "laws of the game" that I think may play a part in the World Cup.

I recall Scotland vs Australia in the last World Cup ... something like this is bound to happen next year unfortunately.

* ie the offside rule ... that was as close as it gets to being offside or onside!

networkn

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#2123908 12-Nov-2018 08:58

So that was a tough match against England. I think they pretty much outplayed us for a majority of the game. Their aerial attack and defense was better than ours. We again looked exposed in the air. We have dropped a long way since Dagg and Jane etc were the best in the world in the air and people wouldn't kick to us as a result. I feel like our takes in the air are at best a 60/40 proposition. Their kicking game was mostly superior to ours, their kicks were more easily competed for, and less aimless. Our defence allowed 2 tries to their single. We also had a lot of handling errors. We had a couple of really good line breaks and then failed to execute the final moves. Was frustrating. Weather played a part, but I think the Northern Teams have worked out how best to put us under pressure, and I don't feel we deal with that pressure super well (though to our credit, we did win so I guess that is something).

What I am happy about, was the fact we continue to show belief, and we aren't afraid to win ugly. Barrett was great off the Tee. McKenzie had a pretty average night, I would definitely rather see someone else at Fullback and maybe see McKenzie off the bench. Crotty was in beast mode off the bench. A couple of nice offloads by SBW but hard to judge him on 30 minutes when the team was pretty much going backward the whole time.

I agree re Retallick, Coles and I thought Goodhue was pretty decent as well. I am imagining the forwards will be very sore from both teams, there were some scary solid tackles.

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#2123915 12-Nov-2018 09:14

What is becoming pretty clear though, is that barring any injury, the World Cup campaign is going to be built around having two play makers on the field at the same time. Those being a combo of Barrett, McKenzie and Mo'unga. Mo'unga can possibly play at fullback, but both Barrett and McKenzie are a more natural for there, if that is what they are trying to achieve.
My heart sank when I saw the first play of the game saw the ball slip straight through Retallick's grip. I thought "I hope it's not going to be one of 'those' games."
The English were infringing the offside line pretty much from minute 1 to minute 80+. Jones had trained them well.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

networkn

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#2123920 12-Nov-2018 09:21

Dingbatt: What is becoming pretty clear though, is that barring any injury, the World Cup campaign is going to be built around having two play makers on the field at the same time. Those being a combo of Barrett, McKenzie and Mo'unga. Mo'unga can possibly play at fullback, but both Barrett and McKenzie are a more natural for there, if that is what they are trying to achieve.
My heart sank when I saw the first play of the game saw the ball slip straight through Retallick's grip. I thought "I hope it's not going to be one of 'those' games."
The English were infringing the offside line pretty much from minute 1 to minute 80+. Jones had trained them well.

Agreed, they were offside a lot.

One thing I found interesting, is it is infrequently usually that you see the AB's going backward, but we went backward a fair bit in that game. Some by choice, I am guessing to counteract rush defense, and other times because England were really physical.

I don't see Mo'unga playing 15, he is a specialist 10, whereas Barrett and McKenzie are utility backs with a preference for the 10 jersey, though I don't see McKenzie playing 10 bar injury requirements going forward as the space he needs isn't available at first five. I also think he needs either more time at 10 at SR level to get his decision making right. He doesn't have time for that with the intensity of test rugby. I am not sure where the Chiefs will play him next year, 10 again I am guessing, because otherwise Aliamano won't have anywhere to play and he was pretty good this year.

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#2123923 12-Nov-2018 09:23

After the game we went out for a family outting and there were a few English at the park. They were pretty unhappy. 95% of them believed the ref got the offside call wrong, but I did share a photo showing where the offside line was and where their player was. :)

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#2123939 12-Nov-2018 09:40

networkn:

After the game we went out for a family outting and there were a few English at the park. They were pretty unhappy. 95% of them believed the ref got the offside call wrong, but I did share a photo showing where the offside line was and where their player was. :)

Can I see the photo?

PS I never know where you draw that offside line. I've read the rules but still don't get it.