Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2123961 12-Nov-2018 10:33

Now I'm home (away in the weekend) I am able to watch the ABs game properly.
If the English supporters are complaining about offside by millimetres, they need to examine the 22nd minute when Barrett was penalised for playing the knock-on by McKenzie from an offside position. To my eye McKenzie didn't touch the ball and it was knocked back by the England number 14. Even if McKenzie did touch the ball, the England number 14 touched it last before Barrett. From that penalty England scored a rolling maul try.

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Handle9

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#2124244 12-Nov-2018 16:12

Dingbatt: What is becoming pretty clear though, is that barring any injury, the World Cup campaign is going to be built around having two play makers on the field at the same time. Those being a combo of Barrett, McKenzie and Mo'unga. Mo'unga can possibly play at fullback, but both Barrett and McKenzie are a more natural for there, if that is what they are trying to achieve.
My heart sank when I saw the first play of the game saw the ball slip straight through Retallick's grip. I thought "I hope it's not going to be one of 'those' games."
The English were infringing the offside line pretty much from minute 1 to minute 80+. Jones had trained them well.

If they had another right wing who had a skill set similar to Smith then Smith would be at fullback. They like that type of makeup with one power wing and one more like a second full back. Theydont really have that with Milner Skudder and Dagg both unable to stay on the park.

McKenzie did a hell of a lot more right than wrong. His decision making was pretty spot on, which has been a criticism of him. He's still not a 100% finished product but he scored one try and setup what should have been a try just after half time.

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#2124255 12-Nov-2018 16:24

Handle9:
Dingbatt: What is becoming pretty clear though, is that barring any injury, the World Cup campaign is going to be built around having two play makers on the field at the same time. Those being a combo of Barrett, McKenzie and Mo'unga. Mo'unga can possibly play at fullback, but both Barrett and McKenzie are a more natural for there, if that is what they are trying to achieve.
My heart sank when I saw the first play of the game saw the ball slip straight through Retallick's grip. I thought "I hope it's not going to be one of 'those' games."
The English were infringing the offside line pretty much from minute 1 to minute 80+. Jones had trained them well.

If they had another right wing who had a skill set similar to Smith then Smith would be at fullback. They like that type of makeup with one power wing and one more like a second full back. Theydont really have that with Milner Skudder and Dagg both unable to stay on the park.

McKenzie did a hell of a lot more right than wrong. His decision making was pretty spot on, which has been a criticism of him. He's still not a 100% finished product but he scored one try and setup what should have been a try just after half time.

Really? I thought he had a decidely average game. He made some good line breaks, but then ruined it by not protecting the ball and it got knocked out of his hands killing the momentum. He failed to find touch (twice I think) and his kicking was less than accurate at times. SH seems happy enough.

The camera angle wasn't really wide enough, but I would have thought defensively, he should have been further over to shut down the wingers as a sweeper and may have had a better chance of stopping Englands first try. I am happy to be corrected on that point.

For me we play better with Smith on the Wing than we do with Smith at Fullback. He is a fine fullback but he does better at Wing for the AB's. It's kinda strange really because both Smith and Dagg were specialist fullbacks who were switched to wing. I had thought that once your pace started to drop, you moved TO Fullback, but this trend has taken away from that somewhat.

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#2124259 12-Nov-2018 16:35

I just about fell out of my chair to see SH saying if Ireland beat us, they will be the best in the the world, regardless of ranking.

Not too happy to give up our title on that basis personally.

I am hoping we have saved our best for last.

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#2124326 12-Nov-2018 17:18

Go and watch the first try again. Retallick and Williams wrap from the blind to the open side just before England release. At the same time England bring two forwards around the corner from the open side.

We went from having enough numbers to being caught out. It was really well done by England and not the fullbacks fault who was on the open.

I know you don't like McKenzie for whatever reason but he's added a lot to the team. I thought they left him on 5 minutes too long, he made about 3 mistakes in a row when I thought they should have had him off. He can do things that others just can't and the opposition would love it if we left him out. He still has a year to get rid of the mistakes.

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#2124330 12-Nov-2018 17:28

networkn:
I just about fell out of my chair to see SH saying if Ireland beat us, they will be the best in the the world, regardless of ranking.

Not too happy to give up our title on that basis personally.

I am hoping we have saved our best for last.

There is only one title that matters and it's next year.

This tour is the what they have been building for all year.

This the dress rehearsal for the world cup final. Hansen wants the team to feel pressure and hype. Next year will be much worse so he is trying to simulate that pressure.

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#2124334 12-Nov-2018 17:38

I don't dislike him per se (though I find his kicking smile is as creepy AF). I think he can be brilliant, just not reliable enough. There are other fullbacks who perhaps don't have the same "magic" but without the bad decisions, probably have better games overall. The try he scored, probably would have been scored without him there, it was a set peice try he just happened to be the guy on the end of the movement. The break he made, that was all DM, his speed, his agility etc, however, he let himself down by not protecting the ball. I feel a lot of the credit he gets for his brillance earlier on, was because teams gave him more space than they should have. He wasn't as able to have that same impact this year because teams are aware of him (and because at 10 he doesn't have the time or space), and the type of plays he makes. Same with NMS the year before (or was it two).

I mean even if you are saying he was left on too long, he made more mistakes in that time, than you'd expect most players to make in an entire match don't you think?

I think the biggest thing he adds to the team is the unpredictability factor in the opposition defenders thinking (Causing them to contract defensively, or commit extra defenders I guess), which is something valid, but if he isn't making the right choices, soon that effectiveness will be gone. I am interested to hear specifically what you think DM gives the AB's they can't get from another good fast fullback?

The games against France (I can't recall which ones) he made an immediate and noticeable difference.

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#2124336 12-Nov-2018 17:41

McKenzie's duck and weave to avoid three advancing players until help could arrive was a piece of magic that even Shaun Johnson would have been proud of.
Despite a few mistakes, every commentary on his performance marked him highly. I liked Hansen's description of him being "like a fly in a bottle" last year.

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#2124342 12-Nov-2018 17:59

Dingbatt: McKenzie's duck and weave to avoid three advancing players until help could arrive was a piece of magic that even Shaun Johnson would have been proud of.
Despite a few mistakes, every commentary on his performance marked him highly. I liked Hansen's description of him being "like a fly in a bottle" last year.

Actually, I do recall that, and recall commenting he had done well at the time.

I want to reinterate that I don't have a problem with everything he does, he gets described as brilliant a lot by me, I just wish it wasn't so mixed.

I think he should start at Fullback against Italy, I think he is going to run rampant.

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#2124350 12-Nov-2018 18:35

networkn:

I don't dislike him per se (though I find his kicking smile is as creepy AF). I think he can be brilliant, just not reliable enough. There are other fullbacks who perhaps don't have the same "magic" but without the bad decisions, probably have better games overall. The try he scored, probably would have been scored without him there, it was a set peice try he just happened to be the guy on the end of the movement. The break he made, that was all DM, his speed, his agility etc, however, he let himself down by not protecting the ball. I feel a lot of the credit he gets for his brillance earlier on, was because teams gave him more space than they should have. He wasn't as able to have that same impact this year because teams are aware of him (and because at 10 he doesn't have the time or space), and the type of plays he makes. Same with NMS the year before (or was it two).

I mean even if you are saying he was left on too long, he made more mistakes in that time, than you'd expect most players to make in an entire match don't you think?

I think the biggest thing he adds to the team is the unpredictability factor in the opposition defenders thinking (Causing them to contract defensively, or commit extra defenders I guess), which is something valid, but if he isn't making the right choices, soon that effectiveness will be gone. I am interested to hear specifically what you think DM gives the AB's they can't get from another good fast fullback?

The games against France (I can't recall which ones) he made an immediate and noticeable difference.

Teams change the game plan because McKenzie is playing. I see him in much the same way as the likes of Julian Savea, Nonu, Beauden Barrett and Sonny Bill Williams. At the beginning of their careers they didn't do everything right but they can do things other players just can't do. The ceiling they can reach is significantly higher than other players but the floor is lower. By developing them you get match winners and take away their flaws. Some players it happens quickly, others it takes some time.

McKenzie can do things other 'fast fullbacks' can't do. He made 4 clean breaks and beat 12 players against England. No other player beat more than 4 players. He also made 6 mistakes. Take that down to 3 mistakes and you have something incredible. If you can't recognize that he is the unique in his evasive skills then you just aren't paying attention or choosing not to. Who is this 'fast fullback' that has similar evasive skills?

Last year I felt like he was playing out of control and making mistakes. This year the decision making has been much better and he has reduced the number of mistakes but they are still too high. At the same time his defense has gone from woeful to ok. It's not a digital process and he still has some way to go but is also very young. For example when he kicked out on the full it was the right decision, just not executed. He is the same age now as Ben Smith was when he debuted and he has already played 21 tests.

I wouldn't want 7 players like him in my back line. You need a combination of steady players to balance the dynamic ones but I sure want one or two of them. Every world cup winning side has had them. For the All Blacks they are the difference between winning at the top level and losing. Other teams play a different way (e.g. England) but the All Black game is built around total rugby and counter attacking.

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#2128755 18-Nov-2018 10:41

Great game by Ireland and a poor one by the All Blacks.
The difference was the Irish held on to the ball and didn't either kick it away or fumble it.
Retallick's knock on in the 82nd minute pretty much summed up the game.
Hope we top our pool at RWC2019 or we'll be facing them in the quarters.

Edit: Thought the officiating was top notch.

And the Irish try came from the exact same move as the ABs pulled off in Japan(I think).

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#2128966 18-Nov-2018 17:44

That was a really high quality game. Ireland deserved their win and the All Blacks didn't.

I really hope the focus goes where it should - on the forwards. Our defence was very good but we didn't win possession and then go forward with it. The Irish scrum was a little better than ours and the lineout was about the same (we won some of theirs, they won some of ours). The Irish won the gain line with their defence.

I did think that the All Blacks deliberately didn't show everything - they didn't pick and go much and they didn't use a lot of short balls around the fringe of the ruck. They also persisted with kicking and it didn't come off. Our box kicking and chase has been really poor all year which makes it hard to win the ball. We aren't getting numbers in our chase which lets the opposition create traffic. The box kick is a huge weapon for the northern hemisphere and we just aren't executing that well.

I think our pack looks tired at the moment. They need a good rest as they will need to be peaking in a years time. It will probably frustrate people who care about super rugby but I would try and keep the key players out until March if they can.

Good game though, clean, enjoyable and very well played by Ireland.

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#2128983 18-Nov-2018 18:56

I've really enjoyed the games these last couple of weeks. The Rugby Championship is almost too predictable these days and so it's a nice refresh to have some quality tight test matches.

I thought Ireland played well. They didn't really do anything spectacular (barring Stockdale's moment of brilliance), just got into their work and in the end outplayed us quite easily. I'm not entirely sure what our game plan was but the kicking and chasing didn't work. The grubber kicks when we had overlaps didn't work. It was all just a bit confusing, and I really hope that we just weren't showing all our cards, but I'm not so sure.

You can see how some players impact our team by the way Read and Retallick played. Both had extremely poor games by their standards which seemed to always have us on the back foot (and in Reads case cost us a sure try). I think BB isn't a great 10 when our forward pack isn't dominating and he's put under pressure. He looks quite lost and his decision making generally quite poor. Both this week and last week our game went up a notch when RM came on and BB went to full back.

All that aside, I don't think we can take anything away from Ireland, they really did deserve the win, and if we don't up our game in the next 12 months I'd put them as favourites to win the RWC.

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#2128997 18-Nov-2018 20:12

I am totally gutted by this loss. This was the game I expected the AB's to get up for, given the less than convincing performances for the rest of the test season (with a couple of convincing results against Australia excepted). I actually hoped we would win convincingly, but instead we didn't even score a try. I can't quite recall the last time it happened, though I am sure google could tell me.

Our finishing is totally broken the last few tests and we are making completely out of character handling errors. I can understand potentially not showing our NEW stuff, but where the heck is all the old stuff that was winning us games?

I was absolutely floored at the number of times we kicked away possession without a decent chase, and we are maybe 5th in the world in the air right now. We were OKish today, but gone are the outstanding performances in the air we used to be known for.

I agree our forwards look tired, but I was happier with our defense this game at least.

Ireland deserved the win entirely.

I'd support the forward pack resting until March, even as a SR fan.

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#2129053 18-Nov-2018 21:16

It's not like the opposition is a bunch of rubes. Ireland have a very very good side and play a style which is hard to beat. They don't chance their arm that much, they try and maintain posseion for long periods of time and they are superbly conditioned. The All Blacks have won a lot of games by being fitter than the opposition and running over them in the last 10 minutes.

The old stuff gets analysed and worked out. Ireland are very good as are South Africa be England. Our gane is based on quick ball - if the pack doesn't deliver Smith is ineffective and Barrett struggles.

It's going to be a great world cup, I can't remember one this open.

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