Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2129055 18-Nov-2018 21:31

networkn:

we didn't even score a try. I can't quite recall the last time it happened, though I am sure google could tell me.

We've had a couple of try-less draws against Aussie (2012 and 2014). Apparently the last time it happened in Europe was 1995. So yes, very upsetting.

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Jas777

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#2129943 20-Nov-2018 09:05

This game, the one the week before and 2 against the Crusaders show that Beauden Barrett is becoming a bit of a flat track bully. He needs to do something so he can be effective against teams that have worked how to shut him down.

The game also showed how we lack a test standard no 6 and how Read is probably passed his best which is understandable considering his back injuries.

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#2130071 20-Nov-2018 11:02

The margins between a comfortable win and a loss, were really small to be honest. We created 4 opportunities and blew them all, in what most would say are totally uncharacteristic errors (mostly handling or decision making). I remain disappointed that the AB's didn't continue their legacy of getting up for big games, but I do understand they are trying to do different things and evolve the game. I feel the AB's tank is pretty much empty and we have a number of players below par as well. Aaron Smith for example has been pretty average this year. You don't need much to go wrong in a game between two good sides, for one team to come out the losing side.

I do think that the Super Rugby competition has jumped in intensity and physicality. I don't think that has helped us either, as there is less in the tank for Test season.

The timing is ok for this, we need to focus on the areas of our games that need tightening up.

There are in my mind, 4 genuine contenders at this stage for the RWC.. NZ, Ireland, SA, and England. Wales were building nicely, but seem to have dropped off a little. At the end of last year you would have said perhaps, NZ and England, so SA and Ireland have really built up well. It will be interesting to see if they can keep their momentum.

The guys will be somewhat better for this loss I think. Losing a game they wanted/needed to win, having Steve Hansen hand over the world number 1 bragging rights, gives the guys something to fester on over the summer, hopefully brings out some intensity and burn for winning.

Dingbatt

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#2130075 20-Nov-2018 11:11

Bring back Wayne Smith. Quickly.

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Jas777

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#2130076 20-Nov-2018 11:12

networkn:

The margins between a comfortable win and a loss, were really small to be honest. We created 4 opportunities and blew them all, in what most would say are totally uncharacteristic errors (mostly handling or decision making). I remain disappointed that the AB's didn't continue their legacy of getting up for big games, but I do understand they are trying to do different things and evolve the game. I feel the AB's tank is pretty much empty and we have a number of players below par as well. Aaron Smith for example has been pretty average this year. You don't need much to go wrong in a game between two good sides, for one team to come out the losing side.

I do think that the Super Rugby competition has jumped in intensity and physicality. I don't think that has helped us either, as there is less in the tank for Test season.

The timing is ok for this, we need to focus on the areas of our games that need tightening up.

There are in my mind, 4 genuine contenders at this stage for the RWC.. NZ, Ireland, SA, and England. Wales were building nicely, but seem to have dropped off a little. At the end of last year you would have said perhaps, NZ and England, so SA and Ireland have really built up well. It will be interesting to see if they can keep their momentum.

The guys will be somewhat better for this loss I think. Losing a game they wanted/needed to win, having Steve Hansen hand over the world number 1 bragging rights, gives the guys something to fester on over the summer, hopefully brings out some intensity and burn for winning.

So what are you advocating? That All Blacks don't play super rugby anymore and just travel around the world playing tests generating revenue?

networkn

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#2130079 20-Nov-2018 11:16

Jas777:

So what are you advocating? That All Blacks don't play super rugby anymore and just travel around the world playing tests generating revenue?

No, of course not, however, as I said the intensity of SR has increased dramatically over the past 3 seasons, and the opposition has improved. Steve Hansen is trying to build greater depth so that perhaps the AB's play less tests per player.

The NZ derbies are what really hurt us. We shouldn't play NZ teams more than once in the round Robin and once in the finals.

The AB's are adjusting their positional play and strucures and this isn't going as well as expected by their own admission. Hopefully it doesn't end up a failed experiment.

trig42

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#2130178 20-Nov-2018 12:29

Dingbatt: Bring back Wayne Smith. Quickly.

This.

Since he went, things have definitely changed. Defensively especially.

networkn

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#2130183 20-Nov-2018 12:38

trig42:

Dingbatt: Bring back Wayne Smith. Quickly.

This.

Since he went, things have definitely changed. Defensively especially.

He has to want to come back, and he already answered an SOS previously. He is getting older, and we absoloutely need to find a suitable replacement for him. I don't believe Scott McLeod was the right choice, though defensively, I am much happier this past 2 tests and we looked more like we did in WS's tenure.

I agree the guy is nearly without peer, but I am not sure we should bring him back, we need to move on and develop new generations of coaches to take over. At best we could ask him to join us next year in our WC defense, but where would he fit?

I am more interested in what happens overall in the coaching box. Gatland, Foster and Schmidt would be the three front runners I think. I do wonder if Ian Foster would have a good reason to feel hard done by, to have been assistant coach and have as much knowledge of the team, it's structures on and off the field, and experience, and be passed over. Downsides is that if you subscribe to the fact that it's time for a change, he likely isn't as much of a change as some would feel is required.

I am not happy with our performances this year, but I do trust Steve Hansen. He's for my money easily the best Rugby coach in the world bar none. I think they have a plan that isn't going as well as they hoped, but I don't think it's time to panic. If he wanted to stay on (and I seriously doubt he will) I would support that decision. I can't see Gatland or Schmidt agreeing to be assistant coaches under him for a year to 18 months, but that would in my mind, be the best way to transition. I seriously hope Rennie isn't considered.

trig42

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#2130295 20-Nov-2018 14:06

networkn:

He has to want to come back, and he already answered an SOS previously. He is getting older, and we absoloutely need to find a suitable replacement for him. I don't believe Scott McLeod was the right choice, though defensively, I am much happier this past 2 tests and we looked more like we did in WS's tenure.

I agree the guy is nearly without peer, but I am not sure we should bring him back, we need to move on and develop new generations of coaches to take over. At best we could ask him to join us next year in our WC defense, but where would he fit?

I am more interested in what happens overall in the coaching box. Gatland, Foster and Schmidt would be the three front runners I think. I do wonder if Ian Foster would have a good reason to feel hard done by, to have been assistant coach and have as much knowledge of the team, it's structures on and off the field, and experience, and be passed over. Downsides is that if you subscribe to the fact that it's time for a change, he likely isn't as much of a change as some would feel is required.

I am not happy with our performances this year, but I do trust Steve Hansen. He's for my money easily the best Rugby coach in the world bar none. I think they have a plan that isn't going as well as they hoped, but I don't think it's time to panic. If he wanted to stay on (and I seriously doubt he will) I would support that decision. I can't see Gatland or Schmidt agreeing to be assistant coaches under him for a year to 18 months, but that would in my mind, be the best way to transition. I seriously hope Rennie isn't considered.

I agree there. I don't know that WS will come back, though I guess if asked, he will respond to the call.

Also agree on the trust in Hansen. He has to be given the time here to get his game plan working. He said himself that there are execution issues, and to expect the team to change from the instincts they have learnt over the last five years to new ones isn't something they expected to happen overnight. I think during that Irish game that they didn't use all their tools either (whether that was Ireland not allowing them to use them, or a conscious part of the game plan, I'll never know).

As for succession, I personally hope that Ian Foster isn't the next ABs coach. I just don't know that he has got the innovation that will be required. I, however, fully admit that I know less about how to coach a national rugby team than I know about just about anything else.

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#2130494 20-Nov-2018 16:24

I agree with commentry from the punters about the heat put on Shield and Aki being inappropriate and silly. I actually expected better from both Foster and Hansen. Shields leaving bothered me more, but personally, I like to save my energy for the games and let my game do the talking for me.

Seemed petty and unnecessary.

Handle9

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#2130570 20-Nov-2018 19:07

trig42:

Dingbatt: Bring back Wayne Smith. Quickly.

This.

Since he went, things have definitely changed. Defensively especially.

This seems to be a very popular opinion but it ignores that he was there for the Lions and a defense last year that performed about the same (especially if you take away the Samoa test).

Tackle percentage was about the same, points conceded are about 2 points different.

Great coach but not a panacea for everything that is wrong.

Handle9

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#2130572 20-Nov-2018 19:23

networkn:

The margins between a comfortable win and a loss, were really small to be honest. We created 4 opportunities and blew them all, in what most would say are totally uncharacteristic errors (mostly handling or decision making). I remain disappointed that the AB's didn't continue their legacy of getting up for big games, but I do understand they are trying to do different things and evolve the game. I feel the AB's tank is pretty much empty and we have a number of players below par as well. Aaron Smith for example has been pretty average this year. You don't need much to go wrong in a game between two good sides, for one team to come out the losing side.

I do think that the Super Rugby competition has jumped in intensity and physicality. I don't think that has helped us either, as there is less in the tank for Test season.

The timing is ok for this, we need to focus on the areas of our games that need tightening up.

There are in my mind, 4 genuine contenders at this stage for the RWC.. NZ, Ireland, SA, and England. Wales were building nicely, but seem to have dropped off a little. At the end of last year you would have said perhaps, NZ and England, so SA and Ireland have really built up well. It will be interesting to see if they can keep their momentum.

The guys will be somewhat better for this loss I think. Losing a game they wanted/needed to win, having Steve Hansen hand over the world number 1 bragging rights, gives the guys something to fester on over the summer, hopefully brings out some intensity and burn for winning.

I get really upset when I see some of the comments around intensity and burn for winning etc. I haven't seen any issues around effort or desire, just execution. I really don't think that intensity is the issue and the All Blacks have been very open about the fact that too much intensity used to be an issue and caused them to lose games.

The ability to adapt and change is much more of an issue and we may not have the ability to do this in time for the world cup. As you said the margins are really small and we will not be on top for ever. We may have seen the best of this version of the All Blacks and other teams are rising. We have real issues with winning the gain line in our forwards and our midfield. These may be able to be solved or we may not have the players and/or the game plan to fix them but I don't think the issue is burn for winning or intensity.

If anything in the England game the guys were to wound up early on and weren't able to perform effectively.

Other teams have great players and very smart coaching. Ireland have also taken the central contract model and applied it which has really helped them as well. We don't have a monopoly on smart coaches and great players and sooner or later we will be beaten.

We have been spoiled for a long time with this team. I hope that they are going to win the world cup and I think they have a plan to win it. We can judge them then not now. Regardless I don't doubt the effort or the desire.

networkn

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#2131065 21-Nov-2018 13:24

Handle9:

I get really upset when I see some of the comments around intensity and burn for winning etc. I haven't seen any issues around effort or desire, just execution. I really don't think that intensity is the issue and the All Blacks have been very open about the fact that too much intensity used to be an issue and caused them to lose games.

The ability to adapt and change is much more of an issue and we may not have the ability to do this in time for the world cup. As you said the margins are really small and we will not be on top for ever. We may have seen the best of this version of the All Blacks and other teams are rising. We have real issues with winning the gain line in our forwards and our midfield. These may be able to be solved or we may not have the players and/or the game plan to fix them but I don't think the issue is burn for winning or intensity.

If anything in the England game the guys were to wound up early on and weren't able to perform effectively.

Other teams have great players and very smart coaching. Ireland have also taken the central contract model and applied it which has really helped them as well. We don't have a monopoly on smart coaches and great players and sooner or later we will be beaten.

We have been spoiled for a long time with this team. I hope that they are going to win the world cup and I think they have a plan to win it. We can judge them then not now. Regardless I don't doubt the effort or the desire.

I'm sorry if I really upset you with my comments..

I feel the team hasn't been right mentally for these past few tests. I am not sure I could put my finger on what it is exactly that makes me feel this way, but the AB's have a habit of being pretty good at bouncing back from a loss or a scrappy performance and fixing the issues from the prior week and this hasn't felt as well done this year (or a little last year too) compared to previously. The improperly channelled intensity and over eagerness is an issue I agree, so it's about preparing well. I expected the AB's to be well up for this, but in reality, they were struggling to make the gain line. This isn't really like the AB's and hard to know if it stems from tired players, new techniques that haven't settled, different style of play, or the wrong people in their respective positions. I am not panicking, just making observations from what I can observe. It feels a little like the entire team including coaches are pretty much just hanging out till the end of the year when they can get a break/rest.

We have essentially 4 tests to sort ourselves out which isn't a hell of a lot of time.

I did find this article good reading and it provided some thoughts I hadn't considered.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12163769

Handle9

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#2131256 21-Nov-2018 19:25

The Herald coverage today is really good, it's injected a bit of perspective.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12163994

We might be in trouble for the world cup or we might be fine, no one really knows and we won't really know until November next year. These things have a habit of turning quickly and you can only tell in hindsight what has happened.

The expectations for the All Blacks are always high but this group has been so good for so long that if there are a few wobbles along the way then it seems like the end of the world.

We are playing against really good teams. The All Blacks have made other teams look ordinary by being ahead with some plans and having some great players in a very strong culture. We don't have a monopoly on any of these things. Sooner or later another team will overtake us. This is absolutely certain.

Ireland put us under a huge amount of pressure and forced mistakes, the All Blacks have done this to other teams for many years. Our players aren't supermen, if you apply enough pressure to their weaknesses they will make mistakes. Sometimes the group will get things wrong, especially when they are trying to change.

England and Ireland have been building since the last world cup and they haven't been afraid to sacrifice a few games along the way to win the big prize. The All Blacks can't say that publicly (and the coaches can't say that to the team) but I suspect that they aren't all that upset about the result last week. It helps reinforce the need to adapt and should help the group.

Don't forget we were pretty ordinary in 2015 (Australia won the Rugby Championship handily and we didn't play that well in pool play at the world cup) until we got to the knock out rounds.

networkn

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#2131275 21-Nov-2018 20:08

I was going to post that article as well.

I agree that some perspective is required and I agree we are in a remarkably similar place now as 2014 with some of our greats being questioned as to whether they have the goods to last another year. That worked out pretty well for us in retrospect.

However, I also think it's normal to ask questions and speculate about things, otherwise this wouldn't be much of discussion. Everyone has their own perspective, and I don't really see the harm in asking the questions and getting other peoples take on things.

I continue to be concerned at our ability to cope in the air, but they have a year to get that under control. I hope it's on their priority list.

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