Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2215292 11-Apr-2019 21:38

I cringe at the way he expresses his point of view, BUT, he is prepared to stand up for his beliefs.

It seems to me it's OK to express a LGBTQ point of view which goes against the beliefs of many people and in some cases their religious convictions, but it's not OK to have an opposing point of view.

There is a faction of society that demands tolerance of their stance but don't tolerate an opposing stance.

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#2215297 11-Apr-2019 21:47

Handle9:

His contract will have a good conduct policy in it and he's clearly bringing Rugby Australia into disrepute by his statements.

Who determines what is good conduct? I think in his own mind good conduct is raising awareness about something he considers is wrong and needs addressing and in conscience he would be failing in his duty not to say some thing. Much in the same way if you witnessed a robbery but turned a blind eye. His point of view may not be your point of view but that doesn't mean his actions are bad conduct.

I think Rugby Australia are in a difficult situation which ever way they go.

I don't see how he's bringing Rugby Australia into disrepute, he isn't making any statements on their behalf. It's quite clear it is his opinion.

I was reading public comments on a part of the Herald website earlier and I was surprised to see how much support there was for him.

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#2215298 11-Apr-2019 21:49

Handle9:

His contract will have a good conduct policy in it and he's clearly bringing Rugby Australia into disrepute by his statements. If I did the same I could have a reasonable expectation of loosing my job

It looks like he's trying to be fired. The statement was ridiculous but Rugby Australia hasn't been able to contact him, or his management, for 24 hours. It's pretty clear that he wants out.

I disagree about bring Rugby Australia into disrepute. Personally, I don't think anything about AR as a result of his posting. AR have come out and condemned his statements and made *very* clear they disagree. In my opinion that contains more value in some ways than nothing.

I don't see what he said as a reflection of him as a Rugby player or as a representative of AR but as a person who has deep and strong religious views. I don't personally agree with what he wrote. I feel the previous instance he was baited into his response. Someone knew his views and wanted him outed for them. He took the bait. This time, it feels more like he initated it.

I could imagine far less difficult ways to get out of his contract.

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#2215300 11-Apr-2019 21:52

Technofreak:

Handle9:

His contract will have a good conduct policy in it and he's clearly bringing Rugby Australia into disrepute by his statements.

Who determines what is good conduct? I think in his own mind good conduct is raising awareness about something he considers is wrong and needs addressing and in conscience he would be failing in his duty not to say some thing. Much in the same way if you witnessed a robbery but turned a blind eye. His point of view may not be your point of view but that doesn't mean his actions are bad conduct.

I think Rugby Australia are in a difficult situation which ever way they go.

I don't see how he's bringing Rugby Australia into disrepute, he isn't making any statements on their behalf. It's quite clear it is his opinion.

I was reading public comments on a part of the Herald website earlier and I was surprised to see how much support there was for him.

He is publicly engaging in discrimination based on a protected attribute. In a workplace context that is illegal. If he had ranted about race, gender or age it would be the same.

He's a public figure who knows this. It's also not the first time. Last time he dared Rugby Australia to fire him.

He's either trying to get fired or he's horrifically stupid.

I choose to believe it's the first.

Technofreak

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#2215305 11-Apr-2019 22:00

Handle9:

He is publicly engaging in discrimination based on a protected attribute. In a workplace context that is illegal.

I haven't seen anything discriminatory in what he reportedly tweeted, but then I may have missed it.

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#2215306 11-Apr-2019 22:21

Check his instagram post as well.

James Haskell's tweet summed it up pretty well for me. ARFU made the correct choice. I'm sure their sponsors were not happy to have their brand associated with that sort of hate speech either.

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#2215307 11-Apr-2019 22:23

Technofreak:

Handle9:

He is publicly engaging in discrimination based on a protected attribute. In a workplace context that is illegal.

I haven't seen anything discriminatory in what he reportedly tweeted, but then I may have missed it.

That is your opinion but I believe his behavior breaches the Rugby Australia code of conduct. I'm very confident that the courts would agree with me.

https://www.rugbyau.com/-/media/rugbyau/documents/rugbyaucodeofconduct.pdf?la=en&hash=8EE8F8D77E02DE7F1ED033BDC50F2AD8

If you don't feel that his behaviour breaches this code of conduct there isn't much further point in discussing this.

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#2215343 11-Apr-2019 22:25

lxsw20:

Check his instagram post as well.

James Haskell's tweet summed it up pretty well for me. ARFU made the correct choice. I'm sure their sponsors were not happy to have their brand associated with that sort of hate speech either.

Haskell was a little more restrained than Joe Marler...

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#2215345 11-Apr-2019 22:39

Controversial? Yes, but what did he say that was hateful or discriminatory?

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#2215346 11-Apr-2019 22:46

If someone tells you you deserve to burn forever because of who you love/ because you don't believe in god, I would call that hate.

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#2215461 12-Apr-2019 07:34

networkn:
I wonder how long it is till he has an NRL contract, I am going to suggest less than a month. I would be amazed if they refused him on morality reasons.

Be amazed.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/111983373/code-red-inclusive-nrl-slams-the-door-on-possible-israel-folau-return

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#2215564 12-Apr-2019 10:14

Technofreak:
I cringe at the way he expresses his point of view, BUT, he is prepared to stand up for his beliefs.

I can't see the point of pontificating like this. He's just giving ammunition to those who want to destroy him.

As I'm largely opposed to any attempt to enforce compliance with politically correct limitations on speech, I don't support him losing his rugby contract over this. I definitely don't consider his view as reflecting badly on Rugby Australia.

Technofreak: Controversial? Yes, but what did he say that was hateful or discriminatory?

But I also think that it is very difficult to show that what he said is neither hateful nor discriminatory. You would have to be more specific about which meanings you are using because both those words have multiple meanings and a broad range of application within the main meanings that would apply in this case.

At the lowest level, discrimination is simply making a distinction between different groups of people. In this context, it would be discriminating with prejudice, which can mean as little as expressing that view without having actually met them.

Likewise, hateful doesn't always have to carry strong feelings against the other party. It can mean as little as strongly expressed criticism which is clearly the case for Folau has written..

The same would apply in applicable legal statutes, regulations and contracts. They usually allow a broader application than many of us would like. The bars can be set very low. For example, in NZ it might be sufficient to show that a racial (on the basis of "colour, race, or ethnic or national origin") statement is considered insulting even if the author was not motivated to insult:

Section 61 of the 1993 Human Rights Act

Edited to correct hyperlink

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#2215568 12-Apr-2019 10:17

lxsw20:

If someone tells you you deserve to burn forever because of who you love/ because you don't believe in god, I would call that hate.

Did he actually say "you you deserve to burn forever" or words with that meaning. All I can find that he said is hell awaits Drunks, Homosexuals, Fornicators, Thieves, Liars, etc. He also urged repentance to stop going to hell. This is based on his beliefs, which may not me yours or mine.

I cannot find anywhere he said these people deserved to go to hell. In fact it appears to me he is pleading with them so they won't go to hell.

Until fairly recent times the law banned homosexuality, which suggests lawmakers considered people were homosexual by choice. It obvious Folau thinks homosexuality is a choice just like someone might choose to be drunk, be a thief etc. (You don't have to agree that homosexuality is a choice, I don't, but you do need to consider Folau does)

My interpretation of what he was trying to say was hey Drunks, Homosexuals, Fornicators, Thieves, Liars etc your actions will lead you to hell, I don't want to see that happen, if you repent you will be saved. I don't see how that is hate.

You don't have to accept his beliefs, I don't agree with some of what he says, but you have to understand where he is coming from before you judge him.

In my books hate has to be given out before it can be received and I don't accept what Folau said was said with hateful intent.

However I accept you may see things differently.

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#2215579 12-Apr-2019 10:32

Technofreak:

In my books hate has to be given out before it can be received and I don't accept what Folau said was said with hateful intent.

That's shows why you, like me, don't see "hateful" and "discriminatory".

However, whatever my view on how we should be looking at this, I can see how many people will see his message as both "hateful" and "discriminatory" based upon the commonly accepted and authoritative meanings of those words.

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#2215583 12-Apr-2019 10:38

this saga has made me think.

say if Israel (which by the way, means "wrestling with god") had posted something along the lines of

- if you eat cows you are going to hell

- if you eat pork you are going to hell

1. would the reaction be any different

what if he said

- infidels are going to hell

1. would the reaction be worse?

what if he posted

- if you vax your child you are killing them slowly and early

1. would the reaction be different?

and finally what if he posted

- homosexuals repent, you will be saved

1. would that be (more) acceptable? would the reaction be different?

Sorry just thoughts going through my head.

Someone pointed out that the bible also says no tattoos allowed, if you raise your voice at your brother it's the same as committing murder, if you look at a woman "that way" it's the same as committing adultery, if you want something your brother has it's the same as committing theft, and that all sin is the same, no one sin is greater or lesser than another. I wonder if he has any tattoo, or looked at a woman "that way", wanted a new tech badly, or gotten angry on the rugby field.

Sorry more thoughts.

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