Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2216499 13-Apr-2019 14:10

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12222066

I did wonder at the time if RA would get stung by declaring they would sack him without having heard from the player himself or given him a chance to defend his position which in turn should allow him time to seek representation and support. In NZ it would be a problem for sure.

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#2216501 13-Apr-2019 14:16

Every time I see Sevu Reece dot down for the Crusaders my heart (as a Chiefs supporter) sinks a little as to what could have been. But for timing, he probably would have ended up in the Chiefs when his overseas contract got cancelled (reasons well publicised). However, with the Crusaders in such dominant form compared to every other franchise, he is able to really shine. But then so are Havili, Ennor, Goodhue, Mo'unga, etc.

Perhaps O'Keefe could be accused of being a bit 'pally' with the players. How many other international refs would have put up with Matt Todd arguing with them? I'm pretty sure he wasn't the Captain, as Whitelock was still on the field. And he awarded a penalty try but no yellow card, but in the reverse awarded a yellow card but no penalty try in similar circumstances (illegal play preventing a try being scored).
That's not to take away the outstanding way the Crusaders played in the second half. Some of the interplay that led to their tries was almost magical.

Matt Todd has become quite chatty lately, I am not a fan. Same as I didn't like it when TJP and Aaron Smith were doing it. I think players like Sam Whitelock and Kieran Read tend to sound a little less whiney when they complain. Perhaps it's the pitch of their voice or something.

I was super worried when Nadolo left, but Seta Tamiavalu stepped in and did an outstanding job. I was worried when Seta left but Matele and now Reece have stepped up. I've felt that the backs were a little less impressive at the Crusaders than in some other teams, but the last couple of years, they are a fearsome group the entire lot of them and some of the skills on display defy belief. I was a little dubious when o'Gara came over, but I think he has done an outstanding job.

mm1352000

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#2216676 13-Apr-2019 21:43

In relation to Folau (perhaps we should have a separate thread?)...

He wrote this after last year's incident, and I suspect he'd probably write similarly today in relation to the current situation:

https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/

Technofreak

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#2216684 13-Apr-2019 21:59

mm1352000: In relation to Folau (perhaps we should have a separate thread?)... He wrote this after last year's incident, and I suspect he'd probably write similarly today in relation to the current situation: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/

A thought provoking article. I think he explains his position very well, and I agree, I think he'd write the same today.

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Handle9

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#2216688 13-Apr-2019 22:18

Technofreak:
mm1352000: In relation to Folau (perhaps we should have a separate thread?)... He wrote this after last year's incident, and I suspect he'd probably write similarly today in relation to the current situation: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/

A thought provoking article. I think he explains his position very well, and I agree, I think he'd write the same today.

If that was the case why is he not walking away from his contract with Rugby Australia?

networkn

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#2216770 14-Apr-2019 09:11

Handle9:
Technofreak:

mm1352000: In relation to Folau (perhaps we should have a separate thread?)... He wrote this after last year's incident, and I suspect he'd probably write similarly today in relation to the current situation: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/

A thought-provoking article. I think he explains his position very well, and I agree, I think he'd write the same today.

If that was the case why is he not walking away from his contract with Rugby Australia?

I read the article, it seems clear to me.

networkn

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#2216772 14-Apr-2019 09:17

I can't believe no one has raised the Chiefs Blues game. What an outstanding match! The Blues look like a completely different team. The Chiefs also look much better than earlier in the season. Some of the defence and attack from both teams was seriously good and some skill displays were on par with the Crusaders/Highlanders game earlier in the weekend.

It could have gone either way though honestly, the fightback from the Blues multiple times was very good. Something you wouldn't have seen in prior years and certainly not over any sustained period of time. They have in my view, stopped relying on miracle plays and individual performances to win them games solely, and are mixing that with hard graft, and aren't shy about rolling up their sleeves and working toward the opposition goal line a few meters at a time.

Does anyone have an update on Damien MacKenzie's injury? Looked serious. He's a tough player and he looked to be visibly distressed.

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#2216780 14-Apr-2019 10:10

I have only just watched the Blues-Chiefs game.
Bearing in mind it was a local derby between the number 4 and 5 NZ sides, it was exciting and entertaining. When McKenzie went off, my first thought was for the All Blacks, but he is only the third choice for first five and second choice for fullback (behind Mo'unga and Smith respectively) IMO.
The smash-em-up nature of home derbies is a bit of a worry, particularly in a World Cup year.
Having the All Black selectors in the stand probably doesn't help.

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#2216928 14-Apr-2019 11:42

Like you, when he went down I was worried for the AB's for a few minutes. I would be surprised if Mackenzie is used at 10 for the AB's again at least in big games. I think that the experiment was an abject failure. I supported him playing 10 to see how he went, but I don't think anyone really considers him a 10. Having said that, like you say, as third choice and given his utility value...

I can't wait for them to do away with the current format and do a round robin. Like you every derby I wonder what the injury toll will be.

Handle9

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#2217015 14-Apr-2019 17:05

networkn:
Handle9:
Technofreak:

mm1352000: In relation to Folau (perhaps we should have a separate thread?)... He wrote this after last year's incident, and I suspect he'd probably write similarly today in relation to the current situation: https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/

A thought-provoking article. I think he explains his position very well, and I agree, I think he'd write the same today.

If that was the case why is he not walking away from his contract with Rugby Australia?

I read the article, it seems clear to me.

He said he's happy to walk away from his contract if it was untenable for the ARU. It's pretty clearly at that point. Australian media are saying that a number of sponsors are ready to pull the pin on the ARU unless they get rid of Folau. It's also strange that he's gone through the episode last year, been told that he can't make statements like this, signed a new contract and then does it again.

I thought Phil Giffords comments yesterday summed it up pretty well.

TALKING OF SECOND CHANCES Israel Folau can believe whatever he likes. But a year ago it was spelled out to him by Rugby Australia, in what I'm sure was great detail, that if he wanted to continue to collect the massive amounts of money they were paying him he had to stop spreading in public his belief that gays go to hell. The hypocrisy of agreeing to zip it, and continuing to take the cash, then saying it again, and still wanting to save his contract, is staggering.

http://nzh.tw/12222204

networkn

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#2217078 14-Apr-2019 20:02

He said he's happy to walk away from his contract if it was untenable for the ARU. It's pretty clearly at that point. Australian media are saying that a number of sponsors are ready to pull the pin on the ARU unless they get rid of Folau. It's also strange that he's gone through the episode last year, been told that he can't make statements like this, signed a new contract and then does it again.

I thought Phil Giffords comments yesterday summed it up pretty well.

TALKING OF SECOND CHANCES Israel Folau can believe whatever he likes. But a year ago it was spelled out to him by Rugby Australia, in what I'm sure was great detail, that if he wanted to continue to collect the massive amounts of money they were paying him he had to stop spreading in public his belief that gays go to hell. The hypocrisy of agreeing to zip it, and continuing to take the cash, then saying it again, and still wanting to save his contract, is staggering.

http://nzh.tw/12222204

He doesn't seem unintelligent. He writes succintly and speaks relatively intelligently. It seems strange that he would write this knowing the trouble it would cause and then fight for his job. I think there is more to this perhaps.

I think the ARU have made a number of errors in their handling of this latest incident which mean that they may well fire him, but will need to pay out either all of most of his remaining contract. Unless he has clearly breached his contract, and the ARPU believes that isn't clear at this point.

Just because it's financially untenable for Australia because they may lose sponsors, doesn't actually make him automatically in breach of his contract. You'd have to see the clauses to know for sure. He may well be.

It thought this was very interesting :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12222305

Technofreak

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#2217083 14-Apr-2019 20:12

He has one very high profile supporter.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12221790

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Handle9

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#2217088 14-Apr-2019 20:37

networkn: He doesn't seem unintelligent. He writes succintly and speaks relatively intelligently. It seems strange that he would write this knowing the trouble it would cause and then fight for his job. I think there is more to this perhaps.

I think the ARU have made a number of errors in their handling of this latest incident which mean that they may well fire him, but will need to pay out either all of most of his remaining contract. Unless he has clearly breached his contract, and the ARPU believes that isn't clear at this point.

Just because it's financially untenable for Australia because they may lose sponsors, doesn't actually make him automatically in breach of his contract. You'd have to see the clauses to know for sure. He may well be.

It thought this was very interesting :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12222305

It's a good article and totally correct that the personal attacks aren't good.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald he has become more extreme in his views over the last year.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/hell-or-high-water-folau-baptising-people-in-his-backyard-20190412-p51dnx.html

Not a lot from Rugby Australia (they aren't a very well run organisation) would surprise but he appears to me to be in breach of the Australian Rugby code of conduct. Given he's apparently been formally warned previously they should be able to terminate his contract. Equally they may settle out of court to save the cost of legal proceedings.

Both Folau and the ARU come out of this looking terrible after they agreed to go ahead with a new contract last year.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/rugby-australia-only-has-itself-to-blame-for-israel-folau-crisis-20190413-p51dt2.html

networkn

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#2217109 14-Apr-2019 21:42

I believe that if IF agreed not to make statements of this nature (though for the life of me I can't see why he would have agreed to do this in a blanket fashion given his strong views) then he would be in breach. Only his contract would tell us that. Just because it's been reported he is in breach, I wouldn't take that as gospel (pun intended). I suspect the wording on his contract will have a lot of wiggle room. I believe that RA were exceptionally keen to keep his services and wouldn't have been able to get him to agree to a blanket ban on him expressing his opinions.

I agree that RA is a terribly run organization and I think they will end up paying him out. I would almost like to see this go to court as a test case, as I don't feel it's entirely clear as the law is structured. I believe he would have protection under freedom of religion (sorry I don't know it's proper name).

i wonder what would have happened if he had instead said "The Bible says that these groups of people will go to hell if they don't repent and I agree with it" if he would be in trouble now? He would be stating facts.

I guess the other thing is, that if by "terminate his contract" they put him on gardening leave for 3 years remaining on his contract, then he would be unlikely to have any comeback on that. It would prevent him from playing, prevent him from exiting for another sport or country, though I presume there would be clauses against that too.

It's quite an interesting situation. I feel RA has the most to lose here.

Like you, I feel it's entirely true that people need to stop insulting and belittling him personally. Some of the things written in the press are character assassinations.

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#2217281 15-Apr-2019 11:15

Damien McKenzie sidelined for 8-9 months with a ruptured ACL. Poor B'stard. World Cup over for him :(

Wonder who the next cab off the rank is? Havilli can play most back positions, but can't cover 10... Alimano is untested at test level, also not a 10.

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