Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2217938 16-Apr-2019 09:03

networkn:

tdgeek:

Prejudicial treatment. He has decreed that gays are bad, they repent or go to hell. That is his belief that he rants to everyone on social media. Hi, I am a famous rugby player, you all know me, I think gays must repent or go to hell. Its his soapbox. There are many many many statements of fact in history of all sorts of beliefs and atrocities that are recorded in history, by many past leaders of state or religions. That is history. It is what happened,and as the human race evolved we learnt from that. Its now not acceptable.

Can we include other sectors that we can discriminate upon, as in the past, a leader or religion believed that, and it is recorded?

When he was first pinged to this, by his employers, he was warned. He has done it again in full knowledge of likely consequences. Thats soapbox to me. he should go where is heart is strongest, and work in the Church

I'm surprised we are defending anti LGBT behaviour.

So you are suggesting we disband all Religion etc? Most religions are based on the fact if you sin without repenting you go to hell. Most religions consider homosexuality a sin (and in some countries it's still illegal).

He didn't single gays out, he mentioned them in the same sentence as 6 other groups. I am sure at some point in my life, I have lied. I am sure I didn't repent, but I can tell you for certain as a somewhat intelligent being, I didn't give a second thought to my chances of going to "hell" just because Israel Folau said so. I expect most other people not looking for an excuse to get upset, feel the same way.

Anyways, for this discussion to continue it probably should have it's own thread, we aren't really talking Rugby primarily any more.

Agree on the latter. Off course not disband all religion. Nor ban history books that show many many many examples of discrimination and atrocities. There are laws in place re discrimination, we haven't banned religion yet. Having an employee broadcast anti gay sentiment (and yes it is anti gay) to the public by way of social media is wrong, he is 9in the public eye, and has used that, and it breaches the code of conduct that he is already aware of, and that he intentionally went against, again.

No sympathy from me, he has abused his position, he should be saying these things from a pulpit, the rest of us have moved on

Thats it from me, just my opinion on placing human values ahead of a rugby player. The current trendy word "inclusive" will be a joke if this case gets anywhere near a private settlement

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#2217951 16-Apr-2019 09:23

In my opinion the current trendy word "inclusive" is already a joke.

That's it from me too.

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#2217956 16-Apr-2019 09:30

tdgeek:

Agree on the latter. Off course not disband all religion. Nor ban history books that show many many many examples of discrimination and atrocities. There are laws in place re discrimination, we haven't banned religion yet. Having an employee broadcast anti gay sentiment (and yes it is anti gay) to the public by way of social media is wrong, he is 9in the public eye, and has used that, and it breaches the code of conduct that he is already aware of, and that he intentionally went against, again.

No sympathy from me, he has abused his position, he should be saying these things from a pulpit, the rest of us have moved on

Thats it from me, just my opinion on placing human values ahead of a rugby player. The current trendy word "inclusive" will be a joke if this case gets anywhere near a private settlement

Either anything anti LBGT is wrong and all Religion must tow the line, or Religious speech and beliefs are protected including that Homosexuality is a sin, and IF was saying what is said in thousands of churches every week, just on Twitter.

The acid test is what his *Contract* states, and what he agreed to and if it was legal for him to sign away his rights. If he did indeed sign something that was legally enforceable that stated he couldn't say these exact things, then he gets what he deserves, will be sacked, have no career in sport and that will probably be the end of it, or RA did a terrible job of his new contract and will pay the price for doing so.

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#2217963 16-Apr-2019 09:39

networkn:

tdgeek:

Agree on the latter. Off course not disband all religion. Nor ban history books that show many many many examples of discrimination and atrocities. There are laws in place re discrimination, we haven't banned religion yet. Having an employee broadcast anti gay sentiment (and yes it is anti gay) to the public by way of social media is wrong, he is 9in the public eye, and has used that, and it breaches the code of conduct that he is already aware of, and that he intentionally went against, again.

No sympathy from me, he has abused his position, he should be saying these things from a pulpit, the rest of us have moved on

Thats it from me, just my opinion on placing human values ahead of a rugby player. The current trendy word "inclusive" will be a joke if this case gets anywhere near a private settlement

Either anything anti LBGT is wrong and all Religion must tow the line, or Religious speech and beliefs are protected including that Homosexuality is a sin, and IF was saying what is said in thousands of churches every week, just on Twitter.

The acid test is what his *Contract* states, and what he agreed to and if it was legal for him to sign away his rights. If he did indeed sign something that was legally enforceable that stated he couldn't say these exact things, then he gets what he deserves, will be sacked, have no career in sport and that will probably be the end of it, or RA did a terrible job of his new contract and will pay the price for doing so.

IMO he used his public facing position, and with that come a responsibility, as he is representing his sport, his team, the supporters who help pay him, yet he did this to push his personal angle. I cant see how that can be defended. Nor can I see that the default blame is on RA. Legally, lets see what happens. If the contract is in fact loose, that's RA's fault, but the overall issue is 100% IF

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#2218092 16-Apr-2019 12:40

The issue with who to replace DM is going to be difficult I think. It's probably quite a serious issue. I see there is a commentary of not taking a third 10, because essentially we don't have one, which would give us another player elsewhere in the squad, but I have to say that seems kind of risky, given how many 10's usually fall over at RWC's. With only 2, One injury and we are in serious trouble. I guess with a less experienced 10, the forwards would really need to step up every match and put in a tremendous effort and I would back our forwards to do it, though to be honest, our failure to make the gain line consistently in 2018 was of significant concern to me. If we aren't going forward, having a struggling 10 would be a nightmare and pretty much ensure we can't bring the cup home.

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#2218128 16-Apr-2019 13:01

The main loss with McKenzie is the ability to have two play makers on the field at the same time (Barrett and McKenzie) who can dynamically swap between first-five and fullback from play to play.
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#2218131 16-Apr-2019 13:07

Despite Marty Banks being a pretty reasonable choice IMO, I can't see it happening, as he is contracted to the Sunwolves until the end of SR and getting him back and in shape for the AB's would be a big ask. Having said that, he will have spent significant time in Japan which could be a potential plus.

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#2219777 17-Apr-2019 11:36

So I was right I think, according to this:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12223002

No adjusted specific social media clauses in his contract. He refused to retrospectively add them to his contract (smart I'd say).

Raelene Castle should step down if that's the case. If AR made it as clear as they say they did, and he refused to sign a contract to support it, and they signed him anyway, they have sent him a message that they don't like what he is saying, but won't make his contract dependant on him not saying it.

If he fights this, it's going to be VERY interesting to see where the line is drawn. His lawyer is going to have a field day I think. Where the line between religious speech and other edicts intersect.

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#2219787 17-Apr-2019 11:54

Why the support for him (you are in a very lonely group) and always bashing RA? Lets say RA did not get the social media clause they wanted, they could have turned him away (big fail) or succumbed so that the rugby fans can see him play. They took the latter, that everyone wanted. Since then there has been only one issue, Folau. They trusted him to heed the warnings, he let them down as well as everyone else. There is still clearly a code of conduct issue. If RA cannot terminate him, they will have to keep him. He doesn't have to play he can be sidelined for 4 years, which will keep those that pay his salary (sponsors) happy. Or he could negotiate an early release so most of 4 Mill is saved

QUOTE

After a similar remark this time last year, where he said homosexuals were going to "HELL", there are many in rugby circles who were amazed chief executive Raelene Castle signed off on another multi-year deal given his controversial comments.

Folau also tested the patience of RA as he was unable to be contacted for more than 24 hours after he posted the comments last week.

Failing to return calls from Wallabies coach Michael Cheika, the man who lured him to rugby in the first place, left many unimpressed.

END OF QUOTE

He is playing games with his fame. What would have happened last year if RA decided not to sign him up, as they wanted him to behave, but without any proof, they just decided he won't behave? That would have been ludicrous. They signed him up, he was warned, and he has lead them and everybody else up the garden path.

I really can't see why anyone would support him

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#2219792 17-Apr-2019 11:59

networkn:

If he fights this, it's going to be VERY interesting to see where the line is drawn. His lawyer is going to have a field day I think. Where the line between religious speech and other edicts intersect.

Theoretically, it might open the door for all manner of discrimination, and hate speech to be legal. For every manner of hate or discrimination, there will be a belief system that genuinely believe that to be ok, and may well now be tested in court and found to be just fine. I seriously hope not

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#2219813 17-Apr-2019 12:25

tdgeek:

Why the support for him (you are in a very lonely group) and always bashing RA? Lets say RA did not get the social media clause they wanted, they could have turned him away (big fail) or succumbed so that the rugby fans can see him play. They took the latter, that everyone wanted. Since then there has been only one issue, Folau. They trusted him to heed the warnings, he let them down as well as everyone else. There is still clearly a code of conduct issue. If RA cannot terminate him, they will have to keep him. He doesn't have to play he can be sidelined for 4 years, which will keep those that pay his salary (sponsors) happy. Or he could negotiate an early release so most of 4 Mill is saved

QUOTE

After a similar remark this time last year, where he said homosexuals were going to "HELL", there are many in rugby circles who were amazed chief executive Raelene Castle signed off on another multi-year deal given his controversial comments.

Folau also tested the patience of RA as he was unable to be contacted for more than 24 hours after he posted the comments last week.

Failing to return calls from Wallabies coach Michael Cheika, the man who lured him to rugby in the first place, left many unimpressed.

END OF QUOTE

He is playing games with his fame. What would have happened last year if RA decided not to sign him up, as they wanted him to behave, but without any proof, they just decided he won't behave? That would have been ludicrous. They signed him up, he was warned, and he has lead them and everybody else up the garden path.

I really can't see why anyone would support him

I believe most people are being severly overly emotional about this, well over the top compared the actual impact it's having. People are acting like as a result of what he said, which is simply a reflection of what the Bible says, and a belief held by many hundreds of millions of people, is going to cause the end of the world as we know it. I am more interested in the legal side of things.

RA can't have it both ways. They can't supposedly bow to fans desire to have him in the game, even though he says things that people disagree with, and then sack him for saying it. If they felt strongly enough about it, then they would have not accepted the terms of the contract, so there is a clear double standard. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's either a deal breaker issue, or it's not. For them it wasn't, but now they are saying it is. I believe his would be the crux of his defense if he mounts one.

If someone steps over the line, or feels like it's felt they did, they are entitled to take time to gather themselves, get advice, and 24 hours isn't an unreasonable timeframe (legally) for that, as not everyone that may he want to speak to is available immediately either. He may need time to consider his responses. This is reasonable and a REASONABLE employer would understand that. RA had an emotional response.

The fact that people are "unimpressed" or that he owes Chieka a call back because he got him into Rugby, is emotion. He is entitled to consider his response as it's his future on the line. (legally)

It might surprise you that even if you catch your employee in the act of stealing, or a client reports that a staff member told them to get ******ed, you can't just sack them on the spot. There is a process to follow to ensure both sides get a fair chance to represent their views.

In my view RA shouldn't have re-signed him at all if he refused to sign additional clauses regarding his religous views. It would then shown how seriously they take their position. It was their failure. Legally.

Legally, I don't believe there is much doubt he could mount a defense. I am unsure whether he would. If he doesn't, I don't believe that to be an automatic indication that he doesn't believe he has a defensible position legally.

It doesn't matter what he did, no matter how bad, he is still entitled to due process.

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#2219834 17-Apr-2019 12:57

networkn:

I believe most people are being severly overly emotional about this, well over the top compared the actual impact it's having. People are acting like as a result of what he said, which is simply a reflection of what the Bible says, and a belief held by many hundreds of millions of people, is going to cause the end of the world as we know it. I am more interested in the legal side of things.

RA can't have it both ways. They can't supposedly bow to fans desire to have him in the game, even though he says things that people disagree with, and then sack him for saying it. If they felt strongly enough about it, then they would have not accepted the terms of the contract, so there is a clear double standard. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's either a deal breaker issue, or it's not. For them it wasn't, but now they are saying it is. I believe his would be the crux of his defense if he mounts one.

If someone steps over the line, or feels like it's felt they did, they are entitled to take time to gather themselves, get advice, and 24 hours isn't an unreasonable timeframe (legally) for that, as not everyone that may he want to speak to is available immediately either. He may need time to consider his responses. This is reasonable and a REASONABLE employer would understand that. RA had an emotional response.

The fact that people are "unimpressed" or that he owes Chieka a call back because he got him into Rugby, is emotion. He is entitled to consider his response as it's his future on the line. (legally)

It might surprise you that even if you catch your employee in the act of stealing, or a client reports that a staff member told them to get ******ed, you can't just sack them on the spot. There is a process to follow to ensure both sides get a fair chance to represent their views.

In my view RA shouldn't have re-signed him at all if he refused to sign additional clauses regarding his religous views. It would then shown how seriously they take their position. It was their failure. Legally.

Legally, I don't believe there is much doubt he could mount a defense. I am unsure whether he would. If he doesn't, I don't believe that to be an automatic indication that he doesn't believe he has a defensible position legally.

It doesn't matter what he did, no matter how bad, he is still entitled to due process.

The first paragraph is way over the top. I have zero emotional interest in this topic, its quite black and white to me, and IMHO the same seems to have applied to the other posters here that oppose Folau. Its not right to bash gays to put it bluntly. I'm not gay, I follow rugby, more at the AB level, less at S14 level. he is WRONG 100%, end of story. Hiding behind the Bible is no excuse, its an historical document. He can have whatever beliefs he wants, but dont use your high profile public stance to soapbox it, thereby showing a lack of trust

Its no have cake and eat it too. He was wrong last year, he agreed to not do that on social media, so they signed him. He ignored them, simple as that. If you feel that RA should not have signed him, because he is a very good player, and he made a mistake, he says he wont do that again, so you would then not sign him? Ok. Most would have as they discussed, negotiated and they both agreed. One agreed, one lied.

No one said he should be sacked immediately. You shouldn't make that up to enforce your position. They contacted him, no go, Chieka tried, no go, so Folau is playing with them. Unless intentional lack of communication when that is a serious issue, is ok? The due process is well known, he wasnt fired.

And no one is declining him due process.

If you feel ok enough to back him and blame RA, that 's your opinion. RA didnt screw him or anyone else over, they took him at his word, forgave him, gave him awareness of consequences. And he still walked over them, and the sport, and his teams.

No, its not emotional at all, at least from my side. Im surprised its even still being discussed. It seems 99% of anyone agrees with that, because its 2019

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#2219838 17-Apr-2019 13:14

So Aaron Cruden is set to take a 400K Euro Pay Cut as a result of not performing as well as expected and moving to anther club. It seems a fair number of our well rated players who have gone overseas have failed to deliver. I wonder if it's simply that these players can't adjust to Northern style Rugby, or that they lack the desire because higher honours aren't on offer, or what it is. It's rare to hear success stories. I wonder if given the number of high profile "failures" the market price for our players will drop shortly.

Performance, especially in team sports is hard to measure on an individual level, so performance based bonuses would probably be hard to administer and my feeling is that the base offering is still going to need to be really high to tempt people to relocate.

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#2219839 17-Apr-2019 13:23

networkn:

So Aaron Cruden is set to take a 400K Euro Pay Cut as a result of not performing as well as expected and moving to anther club. It seems a fair number of our well rated players who have gone overseas have failed to deliver. I wonder if it's simply that these players can't adjust to Northern style Rugby, or that they lack the desire because higher honours aren't on offer, or what it is. It's rare to hear success stories. I wonder if given the number of high profile "failures" the market price for our players will drop shortly.

Performance, especially in team sports is hard to measure on an individual level, so performance based bonuses would probably be hard to administer and my feeling is that the base offering is still going to need to be really high to tempt people to relocate.

On a lighter note, post wise. I've seen similar things in other sports, its a lot like a comeback, its rarely the same or as good. In this particular case, the players are older, less agile than at their peak, BUT can you imagine what its like being at the pinnacle of a sport, maybe have been rated as the best or close in a position in the past, and now you are in a low level team, in another country, when its really just for the money? It has to be a big come down from the previous dizzy heights. Must be harder to be as focussed and motivated as when as an AB. At the elite level in any sport, dropping off 2 % is a lot, and maybe it juts that small 2% that has brought him back to just "really good" and not excellent. Plus there will be young guns eager to show their wares, highly motivated

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#2219845 17-Apr-2019 13:33

I suspect it's a bit of all of that, plus the attraction of being in a new place, lifestyle adjustments and perhaps a bit of partying. Europe is accessible and I can imagine it would be tempting to make use of the time there. Easy to get distracted. It would be interesting in my view to hear from a player who went over there, though the chances are you'd probably never get a straight answer for good reason, and every players reasons would vary.

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