Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2234550 10-May-2019 16:24

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112638009/an-abhorrent-post-but-proverbial-israel-folau-death-penalty-a-step-too-far

I think this makes some excellent points.

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#2235016 11-May-2019 15:59

networkn:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112638009/an-abhorrent-post-but-proverbial-israel-folau-death-penalty-a-step-too-far

I think this makes some excellent points.

I agree whole heartedly. I read the same article and you beat me to posting that link. It makes some very good points and puts things into perspective with respect to actions and crimes committed by other sporting professionals who by their actions brought disrepute onto their code and the subsequent penalties imposed by administrators.

The other interesting observation was the fact RA seem to have decided IF's fate before the judiciary hearing. It will be interesting to see what penalty is handed down.

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Handle9

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#2235062 11-May-2019 16:55

Sigh. Rugby Australia looks to have followed their disciplinary process. They served Folau with a breach notice where they stated they wanted to terminate his contract. Folau then chose to go before an independent panel.

Handle9

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#2235069 11-May-2019 17:11

networkn:
@handle9 you made comments earlier about fetching 7's not being as important in this new phase of Rugby. Across the past 8 rounds of SR I am seeing a different picture. I can't speak to the Northern game, but seemingly down here, breakdown penalties and breakdown turn overs seem to be as popular as I can recall in recent times. I haven't seen the stats on it, but certainly for my money, having a couple of world class ball snatchers is something I'd be encouraging if I was coaching the AB's. Savea and Todd are both seemingly taking ball from the opposition at will!

I remain very concerned about our ability under the high ball. I'd say NZ ranks probably 4-5th in the world right now (Australia are well above us I think even without Folau), if that. I believe kicking is going to huge this RWC. I think it's not just a matter of being able to catch the ball in the air, and compete safely, but our forwards getting to the player fast enough so they dont' allow the receiver to become isolated. Aaron Smiths contestable kicks weren't great last year, but they seem better this season. TJP is pretty hit and miss. Hopefully our wingers are working on their aerial skills and our fullbacks are working on contestable kicking too. Lastly, charge downs are seemingly reasonably common off the back of poor protection for the kicker, something we need to be both aware of, and able to recognize and expliot in other teams who don't do it.

Most teams are over 95% of rucks won and the most clean steals is 6 by Savea. It’s not really changing the game. It’s valuable to have players who can win ruck turnovers but it’s more valuable to have great tacklers and ball carriers. You can’t rely on one or two players to win ball on the ground, you need your whole team to do it. The days of players with only one dimension are long gone.

Given the choice between a player with Todd’s skill set or someone like Kaino who wins the gain line and gets me lineout ball there’s only one option I’d take.

Savea is a totally different proposition to Todd, his running game is a real point of difference. He could be a real game changer for us at the World Cup and he’s probably ahead of Cane now, even if Cane was fit.

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#2235137 11-May-2019 20:37

Handle9: Sigh. Rugby Australia looks to have followed their disciplinary process. They served Folau with a breach notice where they stated they wanted to terminate his contract. Folau then chose to go before an independent panel.

I disagree, RA came out the day of the post and made a statement they intended to sack him.

A fair and reasonable employer must give the employee a chance to be heard, and act with an open mind in good faith. This includes giving the employee time to collect information in their own defence and to have a support person present during processes if they want.

In my view, a reasonable employer wouldn't have made a statement at all, or if they had, they would have said something like:

"We have seen Israel Folau's post and are concerned, as are many. We have instigated a disciplinary process and will give Israel a chance to explain himself. This is an employment matter and will be treated in accordance with the privacy normally required for these matters. We understand there is a great deal of public interest and will advise once the process has completed, what outcome was determined"

I believe if not for the Players union stepping in, they would have sacked him the following morning and not followed any process whatsoever.

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#2235139 11-May-2019 20:43

Handle9:

Most teams are over 95% of rucks won and the most clean steals is 6 by Savea. It’s not really changing the game. It’s valuable to have players who can win ruck turnovers but it’s more valuable to have great tacklers and ball carriers. You can’t rely on one or two players to win ball on the ground, you need your whole team to do it. The days of players with only one dimension are long gone.

Given the choice between a player with Todd’s skill set or someone like Kaino who wins the gain line and gets me lineout ball there’s only one option I’d take.

Savea is a totally different proposition to Todd, his running game is a real point of difference. He could be a real game changer for us at the World Cup and he’s probably ahead of Cane now, even if Cane was fit.

Turnovers at the ruck seem much more common than a 95% completion rate would indicate. Admittedly, I don't count rucks in a game specifically.

Edited: Well, with some research, I found that it's not uncommon to have 100-120 rucks per game, so 95% could be about right.

I am not comparing Savea and Todd head to head, they are completely different players.

If Cane was fit, I would be surprised to see Cane on the bench. He is the player the AB's have favoured, especially defensively (where Savea has slightly improved), in wearing down defenses in the first 50 minutes, softening them for the bench to pick apart in the last 20 minutes.

If Cane isn't fit, who takes his place, in your view?

Handle9

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#2235165 11-May-2019 21:20

networkn:
Handle9: Sigh. Rugby Australia looks to have followed their disciplinary process. They served Folau with a breach notice where they stated they wanted to terminate his contract. Folau then chose to go before an independent panel.

I disagree, RA came out the day of the post and made a statement they intended to sack him.

A fair and reasonable employer must give the employee a chance to be heard, and act with an open mind in good faith. This includes giving the employee time to collect information in their own defence and to have a support person present during processes if they want.

In my view, a reasonable employer wouldn't have made a statement at all, or if they had, they would have said something like:

"We have seen Israel Folau's post and are concerned, as are many. We have instigated a disciplinary process and will give Israel a chance to explain himself. This is an employment matter and will be treated in accordance with the privacy normally required for these matters. We understand there is a great deal of public interest and will advise once the process has completed, what outcome was determined"

I believe if not for the Players union stepping in, they would have sacked him the following morning and not followed any process whatsoever.

The rules in Australia are a bit different. You are describing the New Zealand process. Summary dismissal is much more of an option in Australia. Also in Australia if you earn over a threshold and are not covered by a collective agreement (which Folau is), you can not take a claim for unfair dismissal.

There have been any number of successful terminations of this kind in rugby league so it is certainly possible, especially if the individual has previously been formally warned.

networkn

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#2235199 12-May-2019 00:29

Handle9:

The rules in Australia are a bit different. You are describing the New Zealand process. Summary dismissal is much more of an option in Australia. Also in Australia, if you earn over a threshold and are not covered by a collective agreement (which Folau is), you can not take a claim for unfair dismissal.

There have been any number of successful terminations of this kind in rugby league so it is certainly possible, especially if the individual has previously been formally warned.

Well, I was recently at a conference in Australia where what you are saying certainly doesn't seem consistent with what was being spoken about there, including the employment consultant/lawyer who spent a lot of time talking to groups about the correct way to handle disciplinary processes and terminations. There were a number of stories from the members of the conference talking about significant consequences of mishandling those processes etc.

I can't speak to the over a certain income threshold bit since it didn't come up. I will say that the consultant did make mention of the similarities between NZ and Australian Law (quite a number of the conference were Kiwi's).

There certainly seems to be a fair bit of inconsistency in sport if you can commit any of the crimes mentioned in the article I posted, and keep your job (or in fact not go to prison!), but quoting the Bible gets you sacked.

networkn

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#2235200 12-May-2019 00:34

The Chiefs Sharks game was a thriller! With 10 minutes to go, I didn't think the Sharks really stood a chance to win, they, like the Blues, just didn't convert their chances all game. Jacobsen should have been in the bin for his side entry immediately after the prior binning. The only thing that likely saved him was the Sharks scoring. It was a professional foul for certain.

Watching the Blues is an exercise in frustration. I can't believe how many times they were in the opposition red zone and blew it! Most other teams would have won that game with 20 points to spare, some teams with MANY more.

The Crusaders showed an impressive range of attacking options during their battering of the Bulls. I wouldn't have thought it would have been that comprehensive. Sevu Reece again, but how good was Mo'unga. Discipline continues to be a serious issue. I hope this isn't an indication of how the AB's will play this year.

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#2235220 12-May-2019 03:01

networkn:

Handle9:

The rules in Australia are a bit different. You are describing the New Zealand process. Summary dismissal is much more of an option in Australia. Also in Australia, if you earn over a threshold and are not covered by a collective agreement (which Folau is), you can not take a claim for unfair dismissal.

There have been any number of successful terminations of this kind in rugby league so it is certainly possible, especially if the individual has previously been formally warned.

Well, I was recently at a conference in Australia where what you are saying certainly doesn't seem consistent with what was being spoken about there, including the employment consultant/lawyer who spent a lot of time talking to groups about the correct way to handle disciplinary processes and terminations. There were a number of stories from the members of the conference talking about significant consequences of mishandling those processes etc.

I can't speak to the over a certain income threshold bit since it didn't come up. I will say that the consultant did make mention of the similarities between NZ and Australian Law (quite a number of the conference were Kiwi's).

There certainly seems to be a fair bit of inconsistency in sport if you can commit any of the crimes mentioned in the article I posted, and keep your job (or in fact not go to prison!), but quoting the Bible gets you sacked.

In a practical sense it's much easier to sack someone in Australia than NZ - I work for a multinational and always had to explain the differences to Australian bases HR people. They were used to having a lot more freedom with managers and staff who weren't on an award. It'd also part of the reason the unions are so militant over there.

The compensation cap is also pretty low - around $70k. It doesn't protect for breach of contract, discrimination on a protected attribute or the general provisions of the fair work act but there is a bit more leeway in Australia than NZ.

If the player disputes it there is an independent process that decides the level of the breach and the penalty (as covered by the award). From a process perspective they seem reasonably clean and if the aren't the level of compensation is relatively small compared to Folau's salary.

The breach of contract / discrimination claim would probably be the way Folau would challenge this in court.

tdgeek

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#2235255 12-May-2019 09:44

If he quoted the Bible, Genesis verse this verse that, noting the scripture chapter, verse, that would be a different story. But he didn't. he quoted Israel Folau;s words to the community, riding on the back of his name, which like any who are in the public eye, represents himself, his sport, his team, his employers, his sponsors. That is the difference. There are articles that support him, including some friends, and some religious sports people, the bleat that he quoted the scriptures. The rest don't. The other articles, that do not support him, make it plainly clear that its not a religion issue, or his beliefs. They also show how he is using his position to sell his wares. Specifically going against them, despite being fully aware of that. Great morals. Contract Law, Employment Law, morality, bigotry, discrimination, its all about those. Its not about the Bible (which is still allowed to exist) its not about his beliefs, which is why we do not arrest Pastors. Its about abuse of his position and his sport, and his employer and his sponsors. Saying he quoted the scriptures is hiding from reality. Religious people quote the scriptures, and the preach some beliefs that the wider world has long got past, but they don't abuse people and organisations along publically and intentionally along the way.

There seems to be differing opinions on what clauses are in the contract. Some say there are none, RA just told him casually, dont do it again, others say there are clauses. That will come out in the wash.

is this Bible people vs non Bible people? No

Is it rugby people vs non rugby [people? No

Its about blatant discrimination and abuse of this that support him and warned him, and trusted him

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#2235257 12-May-2019 09:49

networkn:
The Chiefs Sharks game was a thriller! With 10 minutes to go, I didn't think the Sharks really stood a chance to win, they, like the Blues, just didn't convert their chances all game. Jacobsen ~~should~~ would have been in the bin for his side entry immediately after the prior binning. The only thing that likely saved him was the Sharks scoring. It was a professional foul for certain.

Watching the Blues is an exercise in frustration. I can't believe how many times they were in the opposition red zone and blew it! Most other teams would have won that game with 20 points to spare, some teams with MANY more.

The Crusaders showed an impressive range of attacking options during their battering of the Bulls. I wouldn't have thought it would have been that comprehensive. Sevu Reece again, but how good was Mo'unga. Discipline continues to be a serious issue. I hope this isn't an indication of how the AB's will play this year.

I agree that the Chiefs Sharks game was exciting but was error ridden by both sides. Obviously the heavy dew on a moist evening (fog had formed by the time the game finished) made it almost a case of wet weather rugby. Still rugby is a winter sport, so teams should be able to play in the wet.
I fixed your comment about Jacobsen above, as the officials were clearly discussing the infringement while the TMO assessed whether a try had been scored. But contrast that with Nick Bryant's treatment of the Hurricanes in their defence within the red zone against the Blues. I think it was about 7 penalities before someone was finally carded.

The Chiefs are still missing a reliable kicker. McKenzie (the Elder) had a good game ball-in-hand and on defence, but his kicking, both in field and at goal wasn't great. He is by far the weakest first five in the NZ conference.

Unfortunately I didn't see the other two kiwi games, but the highlights seemed to show the Highlanders grinding out another win, and the Crusaders, well the Crusaders doing what they normally do.

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networkn

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#2235860 13-May-2019 11:37

I am honestly pretty shocked at how the points table looks. I didn't really think there would be so much gap. It sort of feels like the majority of teams are sort of muddling along.

I see Steve Hansen read the riot act to the Props in Super Rugby telling them to get off the Deck considerably faster. The wording of the warning was very strong I was told (and was reported).

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#2235911 13-May-2019 12:46

The Sunwolves appear to have given up. With nothing to play for, it really looks like they are just going through the motions. 2 bagels in a row.

It's a shame, since if I were them I'd rather go out with a Bang than a whimper, esp given Japan is hosting the RWC in 4 months!

I've been pretty tough on Jordie Barrett for what has been some exceptionally average performances in 2018 (after a pretty stellar 2017) at both levels, but in 2019 he has composed himself and been a lot better. Friday night against the Blues his defensive efforts were heroic and his composure seemed better. Hopefully, he can build on this.

networkn

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#2238219 15-May-2019 10:08

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112725075/toulon-owner-mourad-boudjellal-admits-he-may-have-been-too-harsh-on-julian-savea

I see the owner of Toulon has softened his stance on Savea, but I note the following:

He was dropped after Boudjellal's initial outburst but put his head down, trained hard and fought his way back into the starting lineup where his form improved towards the end of the season.

It's a sign that Savea really lacks the work ethic to be truly great. The only time he works hard is when HE feels he has something to lose. It's pretty clear that over time, Savea has struggled for motivation, and is really only concerned with consequence driven motivation.

It's a shame, because if he had continued his red hot form, he would have fairly likely to have been considered even better than Lomu. There were murmurings of it at the height of his performances.

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