Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2239053 16-May-2019 12:03

If you wonder why I am critical of Rugby Australia, and of Castle specifically?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112756611/contract-debacle-that-left-rugby-australia-vulnerable-in-israel-folau-storm

Even if they succeed in ripping up his contract, which seems likely now, it shows a high level of what would be considered by most, incompetency, regarding employment matters.

I mean:

Castle wanted to cement their relationship after a rocky year but, crucially, also to talk him around to agreeing to something someone had forgotten to include in the original contract Folau had signed on October 10.

In my view, if they really felt it was such a big deal, they simply shouldn't have signed him again without a clause in writing to specifically handle this.

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networkn

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#2239938 17-May-2019 13:09

Man, I really hope for Sam Canes long term health, that he is fully recovered. Seems intense coming back a week early and playing his first game back in a NZ derby that essentially will end one teams play off hopes, wouldn't be the one I'd opt for.

He has been spreading the message of looking after oneself and being brave about saying "I'm not ok", even if medical clearance is giving, so one assumes he genuinely feels fully recovered and is ready to go.

I almost don't want to watch that game in case something bad happens to him. I felt a bit like that every time I saw Richie Mo'unga go into contact after he broke his jaw last year. Well for the first 40 minutes I suppose.

trig42

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#2239939 17-May-2019 13:12

I don't know how Sam Cane can get his head around playing again.

He must have been so close to paralysis, or worse, and surely that has to play on your mind.

I hope he is OK, and stays that way.

networkn

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#2239940 17-May-2019 13:17

trig42:

I don't know how Sam Cane can get his head around playing again.

He must have been so close to paralysis, or worse, and surely that has to play on your mind.

I hope he is OK, and stays that way.

Exactly, though he is a smart guy, and we have no idea what his doctors have told him, just what we have been told by the press, and God knows they love to sensationlise things. Maybe his broken neck wasn't actually a risk of paralysis. I have a friend who broke his neck and there wasn't any risk of it. Who knows. I guess we can just hope things work out for him.

I am thinking, perhaps he is just going to test the waters. He has been doing full contact training for 2 weeks apparently. He has the option to pull the pin at any time.

Handle9

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#2240104 17-May-2019 18:45

Entirely unsurprisingly Rugby Australia has won the right to terminate Folau.

While Rugby Australia has got plenty of problems the more that comes out the more of a zealot that Folau appears. It appears that he is trying to be a matyr regardless of the cost to him or Rugby Australia.

Rugby Australia appear to have tried to resolve this in any number of ways and Folau has refused all of them. Refusing to answer the phone, refusing to talk to player welfare officers etc. According to the SMH he's also distanced himself from his manager. He really did give Rugby Australia little alternative but to sack him.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/key-folau-relationship-on-the-rocks-as-end-looms-with-rugby-20190513-p51mtj.html

Handle9

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#2240107 17-May-2019 18:50

networkn:
trig42:

I don't know how Sam Cane can get his head around playing again.

He must have been so close to paralysis, or worse, and surely that has to play on your mind.

I hope he is OK, and stays that way.

Exactly, though he is a smart guy, and we have no idea what his doctors have told him, just what we have been told by the press, and God knows they love to sensationlise things. Maybe his broken neck wasn't actually a risk of paralysis. I have a friend who broke his neck and there wasn't any risk of it. Who knows. I guess we can just hope things work out for him.

I am thinking, perhaps he is just going to test the waters. He has been doing full contact training for 2 weeks apparently. He has the option to pull the pin at any time.

Given that hes had 2 weeks of full contact and he's medically cleared it doesn't seem a big deal. He's had 6 months recovery so a week either way isn't a huge difference.

tdgeek

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#2240152 17-May-2019 19:34

Handle9: Entirely unsurprisingly Rugby Australia has won the right to terminate Folau.

While Rugby Australia has got plenty of problems the more that comes out the more of a zealot that Folau appears. It appears that he is trying to be a matyr regardless of the cost to him or Rugby Australia.

Rugby Australia appear to have tried to resolve this in any number of ways and Folau has refused all of them. Refusing to answer the phone, refusing to talk to player welfare officers etc. According to the SMH he's also distanced himself from his manager. He really did give Rugby Australia little alternative but to sack him.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/key-folau-relationship-on-the-rocks-as-end-looms-with-rugby-20190513-p51mtj.html

The correct decision, its 2019, not 1949. A pity.

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#2240346 18-May-2019 09:20

tdgeek:

The correct decision, its 2019, not 1949. A pity.

It's not the correct decision. It's 2019, not 1984.

networkn

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#2240410 18-May-2019 11:04

Hammerer:

tdgeek:

The correct decision, its 2019, not 1949. A pity.

It's not the correct decision. It's 2019, not 1984.

Agreed, it's insane that words spoken in thousands or tens of thousands of Churches every week without challenge could cause someone to lose their job, when people who have beaten their wives, and many other far more heinous crimes get far lesser punishment.

It's also ridiculous to suggest he is trying to make himself a martyr. I guess it's one way to look at it, the other is that he is standing by his values and money means less to him than that (which isn't common). It's also twisting things to suggest he refused to communicate, he is perfectly entitled to take some time to consider his position and take counsel on his best way forward. It's up to him who he chooses to give him advice.

For the record, I am not religious.

networkn

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#2240412 18-May-2019 11:07

Congratulations to the Jaguares who outplayed the Hurricanes in Wellington. They did better at set piece, at the breakdown and obviously studied the Hurricanes to determine the right kicking strategies.

Being the side they are, up until it was 10 minutes to go and they had to score 3 times, I thought there was an outside chance for them to pull it off.

tdgeek

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#2240559 18-May-2019 15:04

networkn:

Agreed, it's insane that words spoken in thousands or tens of thousands of Churches every week without challenge could cause someone to lose their job, when people who have beaten their wives, and many other far more heinous crimes get far lesser punishment.

It's also ridiculous to suggest he is trying to make himself a martyr. I guess it's one way to look at it, the other is that he is standing by his values and money means less to him than that (which isn't common). It's also twisting things to suggest he refused to communicate, he is perfectly entitled to take some time to consider his position and take counsel on his best way forward. It's up to him who he chooses to give him advice.

For the record, I am not religious.

He wasn't in a church repeating ancient scriptures.

Martyr? No. He abused his position to sell his religious wares, selling HIS bigotted attitude, hiding behind the Bible. if he was not in the public eye, representing Australian Rugby, Rugby, and his teams and team members, and sponsors, no one would have an issue. His employers have an issue, they have now kicked him to touch, sponsors have also. I guess his employers over reacted and so did the sponsors? Or maybe they don't support bigotry and discrimination and don't want to be associated with it. neither do most of us. Itscan employment issue, that cannot per more obvious, and the employers have had enough of him, so he's out They screwed up managing the situation, but they also gave him trust and forgave him, funny that. He abused them. His failing was he created this on purpose as he know what would happen, he agreed not to play up, but did anyway.

No sympathy, he did this on purpose, it wasn't the usual "error of judgement" But then again, Im biased as I dont support discrimination

Handle9

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#2240560 18-May-2019 15:07

networkn:

Hammerer:

tdgeek:

The correct decision, its 2019, not 1949. A pity.

It's not the correct decision. It's 2019, not 1984.

Agreed, it's insane that words spoken in thousands or tens of thousands of Churches every week without challenge could cause someone to lose their job, when people who have beaten their wives, and many other far more heinous crimes get far lesser punishment.

It's also ridiculous to suggest he is trying to make himself a martyr. I guess it's one way to look at it, the other is that he is standing by his values and money means less to him than that (which isn't common). It's also twisting things to suggest he refused to communicate, he is perfectly entitled to take some time to consider his position and take counsel on his best way forward. It's up to him who he chooses to give him advice.

For the record, I am not religious.

He is an employee who repeatedly and deliberately breached policy then refused to talk to his employer for around a week. If that happened in any other corporate the person would be terminated. Just because something is acceptable in a private context doesn't mean it's acceptable in public. It's wrong to say that the homophobic nonsense goes on without challenge. There have been plenty of very public challenges to some churches stance on homosexuality.

In the other cases you are referring to the players have almost universally acknowledged that the their actions were unacceptable. The reason he's been fired isn't really the posts, it's his refusal to acknowledge that he has a duty to behave in a way that is in accordance with company policy. He's totally breached any trust that Rugby Australia had in him.

This article sums it up quite well.

This is on Folau, it's gone in a direction he has chosen.

Technofreak

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#2240578 18-May-2019 16:00

networkn:

Agreed, it's insane that words spoken in thousands or tens of thousands of Churches every week without challenge could cause someone to lose their job, when people who have beaten their wives, and many other far more heinous crimes get far lesser punishment.

This is one big area for me that shows significant inconsistency with the way this whole issue has been treated. It's not OK say what you truly believe to be right according to your beliefs but it's OK to beat wives girlfriends etc, which no person in their right mind would consider acceptable.

This article summed it up very well. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112638009/an-abhorrent-post-but-proverbial-israel-folau-death-penalty-a-step-too-far

Rugby Australia will need to be very careful from now how they handle player indiscretions.

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dafman

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#2240581 18-May-2019 16:08

Three reasons why I support with RA kicking Israel to touch.

1. This year Israel signed a four year contract, the conditions of which included his agreement to abide by his employer's code of conduct. Yet within mere months he deliberately breached this agreement. So don't bother trying to tell me here is someone of integrity.

2. And before he pushed the send button on the latest post, Israel knew he was going to bring down a wall on pain and a media storm onto his employer. He knew this because he had done it once before and the consequences were well known to him. Yet he deliberately dumped his employer right into it. And he didn't have the decency to warn them first, or even bother to front up to discuss it with them afterwards. As I see it, the behaviour of a spoilt child.

3. He keeps insisting he was merely quoting the bible. He wasn't. Nowhere in the bible does it say homosexuals will go to hell. And he insists he 'said it out of love.' Well that kind of love has seen gay people ostracised, harassed, beaten and killed over history. Personally, that is the kind of love I want nothing to do with.

So, I hope Israel takes it to the Supreme Court. I hope the outcome is the same and I hope it costs him a bundle. And I 'say this out of love', because as we all know, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.

tdgeek

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#2240584 18-May-2019 16:16

Technofreak:

networkn:

Agreed, it's insane that words spoken in thousands or tens of thousands of Churches every week without challenge could cause someone to lose their job, when people who have beaten their wives, and many other far more heinous crimes get far lesser punishment.

This is one big area for me that shows significant inconsistency with the way this whole issue has been treated. It's not OK say what you truly believe to be right according to your beliefs but it's OK to beat wives girlfriends etc, which no person in their right mind would consider acceptable.

This article summed it up very well. https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/112638009/an-abhorrent-post-but-proverbial-israel-folau-death-penalty-a-step-too-far

Rugby Australia will need to be very careful from now how they handle player indiscretions.

I can understand your point. If it was an indiscretion, where he meant to state beliefs but within the confines of the previous handing of the issue, but inadvertently, or got carried away, and he apologised and involved himself with his error, it would have been settled. As many many other people have done when they went over the line. But he did the opposite, as if he created this intentionally, knowing it would get news play, knowing that he did not sign the clause addendum that RA forgot to include. IMHO he used this for maximum effect. That may be incorrect or a bit harsh, but he definitely played this.

Yes, if you look hard you will see articles that support him, and use the religious persecution as the defence. You will see support from his Pacifika friends, and a couple of rugby religious strong believers. I ignore that. I also ignore the expected comments from the gay community, also biased. The rest off us that are left, heavily see this as discrimination, not religious persecution used by RA and his sponsors.

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