Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Mad Scientist
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#1332848 28-Jun-2015 08:37

The team with fewer mistakes will take the final generally. But the canes have just that bit more on paper.

There is one other factor, the cake tin has a swirl at height, so their kickers have a homeground advantage in just the kicking alone.

linw

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#1332887 28-Jun-2015 10:53

Yea, homeground advantage is a plus for us. There will be a lot more canes supporters yelling!!

Dingbatt

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#1332894 28-Jun-2015 11:21

Depending on injuries, there is going to be some brilliant match ups in just about every position in the backline. Both full of current or named All Blacks.
Perhaps the ABs to play Samoa should wear red/black/yellow/blue socks (a la Barbarians) since there will be so many first choice players missing!

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itxtme

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#1332896 28-Jun-2015 11:31

thought Yellow + Penalty was too harsh. Penalty try was the right decision. No yellow for my money.

My understanding is that a misconduct of that nature when in conjunction with a penalty try must be sent off (either yellow or red)

"A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off."; sent off is red, caution and temporarily suspended is yellow.

I also thought it was a harsh call, from one angle it looks quite legitimate, from the other it looks like it could be deemed dangerous. Its a hard one though, because if its foul play then the only correct decision is the penalty try + sending off. If its not foul play, then its held up, 5m reset. Cant be anything in between. 50/50. and went the way of the landers.

itxtme

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#1332898 28-Jun-2015 11:35

Forgot to mention Ardie Savea, he is a monster player. Arguments that he doesnt 'do his job' at 7 were well and truly quashed while he was on last night. He got some big turnovers at key times, and made some great runs. I think Sam Cane (serially penalty creating infringer) and Matt Todd (solid but non-standout performances) are very very lucky.

blair003

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#1332908 28-Jun-2015 11:55

You know who else is a 'serially penalty creating infringer'? Richie McCaw.

I agree that Matt Todd was somewhat lucky to make it over Ardie, but Cane? The AB's have invested 3 years in him so far, for him to have been dropped because Ardie had a good season or because he gave away a couple of breakdown penalties would be completely wrong.

itxtme

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#1332912 28-Jun-2015 12:21

A couple??????? hahaha

Including last night both have played 15 games (Ardie has played 977 vs Sam 1138 minutes) - so with theses stats we should remember Sam Cane has had 15% more time on the park

Ardie vs Sam

17 Clean Breaks 4
35 Defenders Beaten 17
11 Offloads 22
4 Try Assists 0
10 Turnovers Conceded 17
0 Yellow cards 2

The stats dont give an indication on exact penaltys against, but 2 yellows says it all and I guess there must be a conspiracy if he has gotten those for "a couple" of penaltys.

PS agree Mccaw is heading down that road too, its a fine line between competing and cynical play.

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networkn

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#1332917 28-Jun-2015 12:36

blair003: You know who else is a 'serially penalty creating infringer'? Richie McCaw.

I agree that Matt Todd was somewhat lucky to make it over Ardie, but Cane? The AB's have invested 3 years in him so far, for him to have been dropped because Ardie had a good season or because he gave away a couple of breakdown penalties would be completely wrong.

I agree with you about Ardie not making it on the back of one season, but disagree about Todd. I don't personally see THAT big of a difference between Cane and Todd. The difference is that Cane is more consistent. Each playing their best I suspect there would be little in it.

blair003

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#1332919 28-Jun-2015 12:43

itxtme: A couple??????? hahaha

Including last night both have played 15 games (Ardie has played 977 vs Sam 1138 minutes) - so with theses stats we should remember Sam Cane has had 15% more time on the park

Ardie vs Sam

17 Clean Breaks 4
35 Defenders Beaten 17
11 Offloads 22
4 Try Assists 0
10 Turnovers Conceded 17
0 Yellow cards 2

The stats dont give an indication on exact penaltys against, but 2 yellows says it all and I guess there must be a conspiracy if he has gotten those for "a couple" of penaltys.

PS agree Mccaw is heading down that road too, its a fine line between competing and cynical play.

Show us the stats vs McCaw who we know is world class (if you can).

But if you are saying that Ardie is more dynamic in the loose, you won't find me arguing. I just happen to think we need key players to perform key roles, and generally speaking for a number 7, beating tacklers will be a bonus skill rather than a core skill the selectors are looking for.

itxtme

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#1332950 28-Jun-2015 13:26

But if you are saying that Ardie is more dynamic in the loose, you won't find me arguing. I just happen to think we need key players to perform key roles, and generally speaking for a number 7, beating tacklers will be a bonus skill rather than a core skill the selectors are looking for.

I disagree, rugby has changed. That is the kind of thinking that has worked time and time again in the past. Now teams like the Hurricanes and Highlanders are being rewarded for changing the dynamics of a game by high intensity line breaks. We can debate back and fourth, however the canes and the highlanders are in the final, and that speaks volumes.

As requested here is a head to head from all 4 players, from this Richies tackling is very concerning. I would absolutely love to see stats on ruck turnovers won, but unfortunately the source doesnt include these stats.

blair003

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#1332964 28-Jun-2015 14:40

I see Cane is basically being subbed off for a couple of minutes at the end of the game to give another guy a run but playing for 95%, the others are job sharing or being managed in terms of game time and playing 80% of the game.

Overall though it highlights the strength of Ardie's game with ball in hand in a team going forward, and perhaps shows a glimpse of the strengths of Cane's game in the tight/up the guts making tackles. I don't recall what happened when they went head to head myself.

If I was an allblack selector the stats id be using for my 7 would be more connected with who was hitting rucks 1st/2nd, how effective they were in cleaning out on attack, how effective they were in the tackle and slowing ball down on defence, how often were they taking the ball up directly, were they getting over the advantage line when taking the ball up, etc. I think a lot of that 'boring' stuff is critically important. I disagree that rugby has changed so much that these things don't matter and having a ball running 7 is more important than one doing the more traditional core rules of a loose forward. You still need to do your core roles well. This is not to say Ardie doesn't, I'm just saying that those stats don't tell a full story, especially for a forward.

Also on the Yellow cards, I don't agree that you can conclude that he has more cards therefore is penalised more or more cynical than the other guys that had fewer cards. Yellow cards these days are usually relating to team discipline more than individual, and Cane is part of a team who has the worst discipline in the competition.

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#1332969 28-Jun-2015 15:07

that's why i am "hoping" that richie was just resting his body for one last push. because from what I saw at super rugby, richie is not the best 7 in the country, if you don't count experience.

networkn

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#1333225 29-Jun-2015 10:46

blair003: I see Cane is basically being subbed off for a couple of minutes at the end of the game to give another guy a run but playing for 95%, the others are job sharing or being managed in terms of game time and playing 80% of the game.

Overall though it highlights the strength of Ardie's game with ball in hand in a team going forward, and perhaps shows a glimpse of the strengths of Cane's game in the tight/up the guts making tackles. I don't recall what happened when they went head to head myself.

If I was an allblack selector the stats id be using for my 7 would be more connected with who was hitting rucks 1st/2nd, how effective they were in cleaning out on attack, how effective they were in the tackle and slowing ball down on defence, how often were they taking the ball up directly, were they getting over the advantage line when taking the ball up, etc. I think a lot of that 'boring' stuff is critically important. I disagree that rugby has changed so much that these things don't matter and having a ball running 7 is more important than one doing the more traditional core rules of a loose forward. You still need to do your core roles well. This is not to say Ardie doesn't, I'm just saying that those stats don't tell a full story, especially for a forward.

Also on the Yellow cards, I don't agree that you can conclude that he has more cards therefore is penalised more or more cynical than the other guys that had fewer cards. Yellow cards these days are usually relating to team discipline more than individual, and Cane is part of a team who has the worst discipline in the competition.

Agree with what you have written here. We have plenty of speed in the AB's and if the Hurricanes or Highlanders tried what they have gotten away with all season with speed against a wallabies or springboks side, they would get a thrashing, because test Rugby IS different. My understanding is that Ardie has been given some stuff to work on around the core roles of a 7 and potentially covering for 8 too. He will get his chances. The Crusaders gave the Hurricanes a beating because they fronted hard up front and stopped the Hurricanes counter attack by stopping them getting ball back once it was out (Kicking into the grandstands for example). I don't really get why more teams this season didn't work out it was a key part of the game.

The Highlanders were so unpredictable this season, they will try anything, it made them hard to create a game plan against. I think key is stopping Aaron Smith and Nahalo. (Wow that try at the dead ball line was a beauty.

One thing the Highlanders turn around shows, is that we need to show our coaches a bit more respect and give them chances to try new things. Jamie Joseph looked ready for the axe two seasons ago.

Hammerer

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#1333396 29-Jun-2015 13:42

networkn: ...

One thing the Highlanders turn around shows, is that we need to show our coaches a bit more respect and give them chances to try new things. Jamie Joseph looked ready for the axe two seasons ago.

Joseph was looking at the axe, at least metaphorically, and he realised that he had to change his coaching regime and game strategy. It meant that he was prepared to have more input and involvement from the players with a consequent improvement in buy-in and commitment.

itxtme

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#1333454 29-Jun-2015 14:41

We have plenty of speed in the AB's and if the Hurricanes or Highlanders tried what they have gotten away with all season with speed against a wallabies or springboks side, they would get a thrashing, because test Rugby IS different

You are obviously a very passionate Crusaders fan, but the stats are not lying (82% tackle success - seriously!?). The head to heads indicate some alarming stats on richy, and while Ardies time 'will come', we only get one shot at retaining the world cup. I certainly want the guys in the team, that are in form - tried and true. Not one but not the other - both. So why not give him a chance if he stands out? Did he not make Pocock (IRB award winner, vice captain, and wallaby captain) look like a little girl on Saturday night??

I can only giggle at the premise that the quick ball risk and reward play would see the AB's thrashed. This is the style of play that the AB's have embraced under Steve Hansen, or have you been watching different games?

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