Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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557 posts

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#1333465 29-Jun-2015 14:59

...
The head to heads indicate some alarming stats on richy, and while Ardies time 'will come', we only get one shot at retaining the world cup. I certainly want the guys in the team, that are in form - tried and true. Not one but not the other - both. So why not give him a chance if he stands out? Did he not make Pocock (IRB award winner, vice captain, and wallaby captain) look like a little girl on Saturday night??

I don't get how you are mixing up in form and tried and true. Ardie is not tried and true, Richie is tried and true. Ardie is in form for the Hurricanes, but I think Richie was on the improve for the Crusaders and have no doubt he will improve throughout the season.

I personally think that just having Richie and Conrad Smith on the field is worth 5 points or so, and in a tight game those 5 points are the difference between winning and losing.

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MileHighKiwi

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#1333472 29-Jun-2015 15:03

There's plenty of rugby to be played before the WC. Ardie will be next cab off the rank if there's an injury. The guy is an animal, he's just so explosive, really fun to watch.

Can't wait for the game, will be eagerly refreshing my browser at 4pm today attempting to get tickets.

itxtme

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#1333496 29-Jun-2015 15:19

I don't get how you are mixing up in form and tried and true. Ardie is not tried and true

Exactly what MileHighKiwi said, there is opportunity for you to give inform players a try, or to try out of form players and hope they come in form (before WC). I see queues already forming for tickets 2 hrs ago on stuff. Wont be able to make this game in the flesh, work meant I could miss kick off. MySky it is!!

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#1333518 29-Jun-2015 15:44

itxtme:
We have plenty of speed in the AB's and if the Hurricanes or Highlanders tried what they have gotten away with all season with speed against a wallabies or springboks side, they would get a thrashing, because test Rugby IS different

You are obviously a very passionate Crusaders fan, but the stats are not lying (82% tackle success - seriously!?). The head to heads indicate some alarming stats on richy, and while Ardies time 'will come', we only get one shot at retaining the world cup. I certainly want the guys in the team, that are in form - tried and true. Not one but not the other - both. So why not give him a chance if he stands out? Did he not make Pocock (IRB award winner, vice captain, and wallaby captain) look like a little girl on Saturday night??

I can only giggle at the premise that the quick ball risk and reward play would see the AB's thrashed. This is the style of play that the AB's have embraced under Steve Hansen, or have you been watching different games?

So let me get this straight. You want Ritchie on the bench and Savea playing in the RWC?

Yes the AB's have been playing at speed, I agree, but they do so with RM playing, and your concern that he isn't as "fast" as Savea just doesn't hold water given we have lost 2 games and drawn 2 in 4 + years. I was actually saying (If you re-read it) that if the Highlanders or Hurricanes tried what they are doing against a test side, they would get a hiding.

It happened when a pretty strong Crusaders side took on a second tier English team and got their butts handed to them.

It has nothing to do with being a Crusaders fan, it's got everything to do with the fact that there is no other like RM and to suggest he would pose a risk to us during the WC (or even relative to almost any other is just insanity.

Ardie can have his go next test season or provide injury cover, it's often how most players get their starts.

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#1333519 29-Jun-2015 15:44

blair003:
...
The head to heads indicate some alarming stats on richy, and while Ardies time 'will come', we only get one shot at retaining the world cup. I certainly want the guys in the team, that are in form - tried and true. Not one but not the other - both. So why not give him a chance if he stands out? Did he not make Pocock (IRB award winner, vice captain, and wallaby captain) look like a little girl on Saturday night??

I don't get how you are mixing up in form and tried and true. Ardie is not tried and true, Richie is tried and true. Ardie is in form for the Hurricanes, but I think Richie was on the improve for the Crusaders and have no doubt he will improve throughout the season.

I personally think that just having Richie and Conrad Smith on the field is worth 5 points or so, and in a tight game those 5 points are the difference between winning and losing.

100000% agree.

itxtme

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#1333543 29-Jun-2015 16:10

Anyone can pose a risk, if they miss tackles more frequently, they pose more of a defensive risk. That said you only have to miss 1 important tackle for it to matter a whole lot more. My point is McCaw is old, and his stats around the park are diminishing. Obviously they are not going to have him off as he is the captain. If you think he has the clinical playing ability he had 4 years ago you are deluded. Its going to be an interesting test against Samoa, could be uncomfortable here for either one of us. :D

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#1333547 29-Jun-2015 16:13

personally I think the 9-10 & 12-13 combination (umm yes a few numbers there) is crucial to our RWC success, because as has been debated, the other positions have plenty of depth and options, but these numbers don't.

so ... i'm with the whoever plays 7 is fine by me. except that if richie is anywhere near where he was in 2011 come october, he is worth his weight in gold. otherwise, i can't but be reminded of John Smit. but you must say the rest of that team was a let down too.

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#1333549 29-Jun-2015 16:15

itxtme: Anyone can pose a risk, if they miss tackles more frequently, they pose more of a defensive risk. That said you only have to miss 1 important tackle for it to matter a whole lot more. My point is McCaw is old, and his stats around the park are diminishing. Obviously they are not going to have him off as he is the captain. If you think he has the clinical playing ability he had 4 years ago you are deluded. Its going to be an interesting test against Samoa, could be uncomfortable here for either one of us. :D

the only issue with the stats is - those are stats in SUper 15 rugby, where majority of games are against NZ super franchises (ie your ol' mate from back at kelston high)

at the RWC, you face the likes of gods giants and heroes.

MileHighKiwi

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#1333558 29-Jun-2015 16:28

We're not putting our captain on the bench, ffs! Jeepers creepers people. Savea might offer more coming on for nthe final 10 minutes of a pool game than Cane or Todd but they are no mugs, and from the quarters onwards McCaw will play every minute.

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#1333920 30-Jun-2015 10:08

MileHighKiwi: We're not putting our captain on the bench, ffs! Jeepers creepers people. Savea might offer more coming on for nthe final 10 minutes of a pool game than Cane or Todd but they are no mugs, and from the quarters onwards McCaw will play every minute.

Well to read what has been written here, McCaw is an old slow liability and his Super Rugby defensive record (which I admit isn't fantastic but improved significantly toward the end), should prevent him from taking part!

As far as I am concerned RM has performed for us at the highest level for his entire career, and if he wants to play, regardless of form, he should be rewarded for his work by being allowed to play. If he he a broken neck and stated he was able to play, I'd back the guy.

No player in the world has done more that I can think of. Quite simply he deserves the benefit of the doubt. To even compare Savea (who is a good player no doubt), to McCaw is ...

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#1333929 30-Jun-2015 10:16

you need a balance of both youth and experience. the trick is getting the balance right.

they each offer aspects that should complement each other. so i'd say RM and another young guy. don't care whether RM plays 6 7 or 8.

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#1333962 30-Jun-2015 10:50

itxtme: Anyone can pose a risk, if they miss tackles more frequently, they pose more of a defensive risk. That said you only have to miss 1 important tackle for it to matter a whole lot more. My point is McCaw is old, and his stats around the park are diminishing. Obviously they are not going to have him off as he is the captain. If you think he has the clinical playing ability he had 4 years ago you are deluded. Its going to be an interesting test against Samoa, could be uncomfortable here for either one of us. :D

I'd be interested to see the stats comparing him to 4 years ago, it was widely heralded last year he had one of his strongest years in the black jersey. He was a mountain. Also worth noting he had a fairly average SR year.

itxtme

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#1334109 30-Jun-2015 13:37

Yep Nonu is a comparable beast, would always have terrible Super seasons and turn it around come All Blacks. To be clear, (read back if you like), I have never said Richie should not be playing. I understand the importance his captaincy role encompasses, which obviously is essential. I was merely pointing out some pretty remarkable stats for comparisons in the jersey. From this evidence versus everyone else's emotional love for their Super team, the stand-out flanker (through stats & team performance) has been Ardie - might be hard to swallow but its fact.

Looking forward to Saturday for an epic Super final, as the week slowly winds on :D

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#1334121 30-Jun-2015 13:53

SH likes to go with his gut trust. It took him like a whole 2 years to drop Piri Weepu.

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#1334548 1-Jul-2015 05:38

joker97: SH likes to go with his gut trust. It took him like a whole 2 years to drop Piri Weepu.

I like that Steve Hansen is consistent in picking players who haven't been able to play most of the season, expecting his players to raise their performance in the test arena, and creating a team environment where team performance is the focus. This means that players don't have to worry about being dropped from the All Blacks without any advance warning. By the time they do get dropped it is usually very obvious to the players themselves. With the worry of being dropped unexpectedly removed from their minds the players can better focus on their game.

So Richie McCaw won't be dropped for the RWC but I think that this is a bridge to far for him. He'll probably pick up an injury/niggle in the other international games and will be off his best. Even if he doesn't overextend himself, I expect that other teams will continue to make it a priority to neutralise him. That is very difficult to do but it has been done successfully in the past and speed is an important part of such plans. Other players can't easily beat McCaw's strength but they can outpace him which is precisely the ability that Ardie Savea offers. If Savea played for any other country then I expect that he would be put in the RWC with the specific intent to beat McCaw.

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