Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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#2579270 4-Oct-2020 19:36

GV27:

Handle9:

New Zealand plays the island teams less regularly than the northern hemisphere teams do. If NZR were serious about helping the islands they would have done it by now. They haven't and won't, they just don't care.

The NH teams play Island teams at home, don't play away games and subsequently mop-up the gate takings. They haven't, won't and just don't care. See how this doesn't prove anything?

The reason the international media is kicking the All Blacks is they've finally managed to justify kicking them - not that it usually stops them, as their perennially craphouse rugby writers can attest. If the Home Union press held their own teams and Unions to the same standards, the world would be a better place.

The difference is that the Northern Hemisphere doesn't trot the islands out as evidence of their virtue and do nothing. Interestingly France had committed to play in Fiji in 2022 after one meeting, NZR almost never goes to the islands, despite it being in their hemisphere and with aligned seasons.

The international and domestic media isn't kicking the All Blacks, they are kicking the NZRU.

How much of the northern hemisphere media do you actually read? Do you regularly read what is written or what the NZ media repeats?

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#2579271 4-Oct-2020 19:38

This was interesting from Gregor Paul.

Go back through time and it has always been thus – New Zealand has snaffled any and all Pasifika talent that has ended up here and stuffed them into the All Blacks as fast as they could.

And yet with no hint of shame or hypocrisy, the national body has cast doubt on the ability of Pasifika to put 30-plus players together in one squad and make themselves competitive.

New Zealand wants to control the labour market so it can help itself to the best of Pasifika and the fear of losing that is why Super Rugby Aotearoa will only have five teams in it next year.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12370137

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#2579277 4-Oct-2020 20:04

North Harbour v Tasman, what a boil over! Who would have thunk it?! Tasman barely fired a shot.

tukapa1

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#2579281 4-Oct-2020 20:13

kiwifidget:
Himself and I were watching the Shield match between Hawkes Bay and Otago.

When it was looking like it might be a draw we got to wondering what would happen to the Shield if it was indeed a draw at full time, and the game went to extra time for golden point, and Otago lost.

Would Otago keep the Shield as at normal full time it was a draw? Or would the Shield go to HB for winning the game in extra time?

Himself reckons golden points are not part of the Ranfurly Shield rules.

Of course it's a moot point now, but we are left pondering what would have happened.

Ranfurly Shield goes with golden point so can't keep it on a draw at the end of regular time anymore.

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#2579296 4-Oct-2020 20:26

networkn:

North Harbour v Tasman, what a boil over! Who would have thunk it?! Tasman barely fired a shot.

They really gave Tasman a hiding. Take the two intercept tries away and it's not a good scoreline for Tasman.

It's probably a pretty meaningless game but still good to see Harbour get some reward. They played pretty well against Canterbury in their first game as well.

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#2579347 5-Oct-2020 08:00

Handle9:

How much of the northern hemisphere media do you actually read? Do you regularly read what is written or what the NZ media repeats?

I used to read a bit but I used to find it one-dimensional and lazy. A lot of their sport media is that way - Formula One is another prime example. There is a dominant, pro-European narrative and anything that sits outside that isn't welcome or just ignored. Brits who bend the rules play 'hard and fast' and everyone else is a dirty cheat. It got very boring very quickly.

Grunta47

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#2579371 5-Oct-2020 08:43

Handle9:

This was interesting from Gregor Paul.

And why shouldnt we protect our interests?

Are we the only team in world rugby doing this? No, and as shown in the last world cup there were numerous teams with more Pacific Island 'poached' players in their team than the AB's had. If I remember correctly, only 2 of our World Cup team were not born in NZ......

Anyhow, a bit of thought on why there wont be a PI team

- all of the top PI talent is already playing professionally somewhere around the world. The 30 plus players would be outside the top 100-200 so would they be competitive? It would end up like the Sunwolves.....where only 2 or 3 Japanese players were starting each game, so a dismal failure.

- basing another team out of Auckland dilutes the crowd/support. Would Aucklanders be prepared to support 2 teams? Not likely.

- basing the PI team out of one of the islands......will we have open borders by Feb and a guarantee they would remain open? I doubt whether anyone would want to take that risk.

- who owns the PI team? It would have to be a combination of all pacific island RU's and we know how much trouble some of them are having with finances.

- if a player from the Hurricanes decides to move to the PI team, does this affect their AB's chances? You have to play for a NZ team to be eligible, so why would you risk the move.

- will the government support it? They wont even allow fruitpickers to come into the country, so what are the chances of rugby players getting exemptions when the government has shown they do not prioritise sport.....apart from Amerca's Cup.

There are numerous other reasons why this is a bad idea for 2021 and it doesnt get any easier from 2022 onwards. So yes, to me NZ Rugby has made the right decision not to include a PI team and to keep it NZ based for next year.

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#2579452 5-Oct-2020 10:50

I'd love to know what the "real" situation is with the Xmas dates. Apparently NZR "agreed" but they are still adamant they didn't. There are claims of the veracity of the documents that "prove" NZR agreed.

If they really did, then I think there needs to be resignations at NZR. If it's proven those documents are not actually accurate, then whoever produced them or compelled them to be produced should resign.

It's less about whether the players "should" play over xmas or not, and more about integrity and honesty. If the only viable commercial arrangement for this competition requires the AB's to play that later week and spend xmas in Quarantine, then I am OK with it, though I think if there is a viable alternative I think that should be used instead. The issue for me, is who lied. Someone did.

I think lying if you think you can reasonably get away with it, could be something someone may do, but when meetings produce minutes and there will be "proof" easily produced to prove if someone is lying, only someone seriously troubled lies anyway.

Mark Robinson doesn't strike me as the type of person who would lie, knowing he would be proven to be lying so easily.

It's all very strange.

Whilst I do agree that NZR hasn't behaved well in relation to it's relationships etc in the past while, this feels like something else. I don't see what they gain by lying in this manner.

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#2579657 5-Oct-2020 15:35

Grunta47:
Handle9:

This was interesting from Gregor Paul.

And why shouldnt we protect our interests?

Are we the only team in world rugby doing this? No, and as shown in the last world cup there were numerous teams with more Pacific Island 'poached' players in their team than the AB's had. If I remember correctly, only 2 of our World Cup team were not born in NZ......

Anyhow, a bit of thought on why there wont be a PI team

- all of the top PI talent is already playing professionally somewhere around the world. The 30 plus players would be outside the top 100-200 so would they be competitive? It would end up like the Sunwolves.....where only 2 or 3 Japanese players were starting each game, so a dismal failure.

- basing another team out of Auckland dilutes the crowd/support. Would Aucklanders be prepared to support 2 teams? Not likely.

- basing the PI team out of one of the islands......will we have open borders by Feb and a guarantee they would remain open? I doubt whether anyone would want to take that risk.

- who owns the PI team? It would have to be a combination of all pacific island RU's and we know how much trouble some of them are having with finances.

- if a player from the Hurricanes decides to move to the PI team, does this affect their AB's chances? You have to play for a NZ team to be eligible, so why would you risk the move.

- will the government support it? They wont even allow fruitpickers to come into the country, so what are the chances of rugby players getting exemptions when the government has shown they do not prioritise sport.....apart from Amerca's Cup.

There are numerous other reasons why this is a bad idea for 2021 and it doesnt get any easier from 2022 onwards. So yes, to me NZ Rugby has made the right decision not to include a PI team and to keep it NZ based for next year.

So basically all NZR is doing is virtue signalling?

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#2579811 6-Oct-2020 01:52

networkn:

I'd love to know what the "real" situation is with the Xmas dates. Apparently NZR "agreed" but they are still adamant they didn't. There are claims of the veracity of the documents that "prove" NZR agreed.

If they really did, then I think there needs to be resignations at NZR. If it's proven those documents are not actually accurate, then whoever produced them or compelled them to be produced should resign.

It's less about whether the players "should" play over xmas or not, and more about integrity and honesty. If the only viable commercial arrangement for this competition requires the AB's to play that later week and spend xmas in Quarantine, then I am OK with it, though I think if there is a viable alternative I think that should be used instead. The issue for me, is who lied. Someone did.

I think lying if you think you can reasonably get away with it, could be something someone may do, but when meetings produce minutes and there will be "proof" easily produced to prove if someone is lying, only someone seriously troubled lies anyway.

Mark Robinson doesn't strike me as the type of person who would lie, knowing he would be proven to be lying so easily.

It's all very strange.

Whilst I do agree that NZR hasn't behaved well in relation to it's relationships etc in the past while, this feels like something else. I don't see what they gain by lying in this manner.

Being realistic the truth will be somewhat between the two positions. The original media reports say that the minutes produced are "closer" to the SANZAAR version. This has changed a bit recently but when it's like this the truth is either somewhat in the middle but probably closer to one side than the other.

None of the players seem to be the "type of people" who would lie. Good liars usually aren't. The only thing I think everyone agrees with is that this is a shambles.

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#2579860 6-Oct-2020 09:07

Not really sure how "somewhere in the middle", would work? A 5.5-week competition? Both sides are being definitive in their language.

SANZAR has less to lose by lying in my view. For NZR to be caught here outright lying to it's management, players and the NZ Public would be massive, when logically, what would they gain? They are within their rights to tell the players that due to the logistics they will need to Quarantine over Xmas and could easily have given players a penalty free opt out clause if some players weren't prepared to be away from family over that time. Lying makes it more complicated and doesn't change anything in terms of end result.

If SANZAR are caught lying in this situation, then who would hold them to account? Everyone would shrug their shoulders and move on.

I guess either way the world won't end, but for some reason it's annoying me that the truth isn't just presented so we can move on. I don't love how the Rugby world is shrouded in secrecy and non transparancy, unacceptable situations are alluded to, accusations are levelled and no-one is held to account.

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#2580146 6-Oct-2020 15:57

There will be language that isn't 100% cut and dried. Normally he said / he has some degree of ambiguity. There may also be things not said which materially alter the intent / effect of a decision. We don't know.

There is the same incentives for Hamish Mclennan as there are for Impey and Robinson. The Australian press are far tougher than the media here, the knives would be out for him as well.

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#2580984 8-Oct-2020 00:39

I am not sure why I am not as excited as I usually am about the start of the AB's season on Sunday. I guess there hasn't been the usual build up, it's been overshadowed between by the conflict between NZR with everyone on the planet.

Hopefully, it builds up over the next few days. Sure as anything, I'll be watching Sunday.

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#2581003 8-Oct-2020 03:28

It's pretty weird to have rugby in NZ in October.

I really just thought about the test today.

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#2581263 8-Oct-2020 12:09

Handle9:

It's pretty weird to have rugby in NZ in October.

I really just thought about the test today.

I don't think it's that. I think it's the fairly big break between the SRA finishing and the test season starting, and the fact most of the publicity around Rugby right now is mostly negative. I also was pretty disappointed the RC wasn't being held in NZ.

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