Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2600128 8-Nov-2020 21:42

I am certain he got two yellows two consecutive matches a couple of years back, I'll see what I can find. It may have been for the 'canes not the AB's, but it was almost identical infringements, intefering with the ball on the ground on their own try line.

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Hammerer

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#2600188 8-Nov-2020 23:23

Apparently, as I'm trying to forget, two yellow cards in one match became one red card in 2017.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/04/two-yellow-cards-earn-beauden-barrett-a-trip-to-judiciary.html

I also want to forgot that game but I've handed out a few votes/likes here because much of the discussion here has saved me saying anything.

Handle9

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#2600237 9-Nov-2020 03:36

Hammerer:

Apparently, as I'm trying to forget, two yellow cards in one match became one red card in 2017.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/04/two-yellow-cards-earn-beauden-barrett-a-trip-to-judiciary.html

I also want to forgot that game but I've handed out a few votes/likes here because much of the discussion here has saved me saying anything.

Looks like he had 3 yellow cards that year (out of a total of 4 in his career for the Canes).

GV27

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#2600243 9-Nov-2020 06:30

Handle9:

There was no clear change in height for the Tuungafasi tackle. The Australian player slipped a little earlier in the movement so was low but if anything was going back up on contact. From when Tuungafasi began his tackle to making contact the Australian player was at a consistent height. Him bring lower than a normal height is absolutely irrelevant under the framework, only a change in height matters. It's a fairly straightforward red card.

Having rewatched that I agree - there was some change in height but barely register-able beyond a slightly more bent knee.

I would have no issue with the Barrett card if the equally cyncial rucktime antics from the Australians had been policed similarly. The TMO even specifically told the ref to have a word to one of the players to cut out the off-the-ball crap, so they were clearly seeing it. There was even a penalty given away in the final minutes of the game after the ABs had scored which slowed down a breakout movement - if Barrett's 30m out penalty is worth a yellow, then so is a movement-killing deliberate rucktime infringement by the other team. But preferable would have been Barrett not doing it at all.

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#2600244 9-Nov-2020 06:34

If there is one thing that has come out of this unending Bledisloe series is that our front row stocks are woefully thin.

Karl Tu'unukuafe is too big and unfit for an international prop and Tu'ungafasi hasn't carried through his Super Rugby form. The influence of Coles is also evident, the pack has functioned much better in the games he's started. He can go too far but opposition teams are intimidated by him. Taylor is a more skillful player these days but doesn't have the same presence.

Our bench front row got absolutely destroyed by the Wallabies bench a couple of scrums in a row on Saturday.

The Wallabies aren't a top tier front row by any means. It's hard to see quick solutions there.

The lineout has been decent and, in the test which Sotutu played, was excellent. Whitelock has been very good, Tuipolotu has been ok and Vaai has some promise. Barrett was good on Saturday outside his brain explosion.

Frizzell has been quite good without quite being dominant. Sotutu and Ioane have had promising debuts and Savea and Cane have been very good. Overall the pack has made progress but the front row is a real problem with no quick fixes.

Handle9

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#2600245 9-Nov-2020 06:44

GV27:
Handle9:

There was no clear change in height for the Tuungafasi tackle. The Australian player slipped a little earlier in the movement so was low but if anything was going back up on contact. From when Tuungafasi began his tackle to making contact the Australian player was at a consistent height. Him bring lower than a normal height is absolutely irrelevant under the framework, only a change in height matters. It's a fairly straightforward red card.

Having rewatched that I agree - there was some change in height but barely register-able beyond a slightly more bent knee.

It was quite deceptive in real time. It "felt" like his height changed but didn't really.

I really hate the way that the red card framework is administered at the moment. In a Saturday club game I doubt that tackle would have even gotten a penalty as it didn't look bad live, it's only when you go back and look in slow Mo that you realise it's high.

I would absolutely support that sort of tackle being a yellow card and make suspensions longer for high tackles. I also feel that those sort of tackles are absolutely inevitable in a full contact sport. There's no dangerous intent so more severe penalties will have limited impact. It's clearly a dangerous outcome and should be punished but it's hard to think the balance is right.

Personally I feel that the high tackle framework is more about a litigation shield than safety but of course have not clear evidence. If they start being as tough in the breakdown I'd have more faith in the process.

GV27

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#2600265 9-Nov-2020 08:02

I feel like the refs need the option to distinguish between three different situations in a tackle situation:

- Unintentional

- Unintentional but reckless

- Malicious (intentional)

With any contact involving the head being a minimum of a penalty but with cards reserved for reckless and malicious contact. Cards would be much easier to rationalise if we could lay out aggravating factors for reckless and intentional contact with the head - at least if the game is 'ruined' by a red card then you damn well know it was deserved.

I have a hard time believing that some of Owen Farrell's hits are any less dangerous from a physics point of view because they don't involve the head than some of the reds we've seen given for contact. Figure out what the intent in an incident was before you give a penalty based solely on the outcome - if it's about limiting the damage to players then shoulder charges that result in car crash levels of physics should be held in the same regard.

Handle9

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#2600273 9-Nov-2020 08:20

To me there is a clear difference between what Tu'ungafasi did and what Sonny Bill-Williams did against Anthony Watson in 2017.

Tu'ungafasi was clearly trying to make a rugby tackle and got it wrong. What SBW did wasn't a rugby play, it could never be a legitimate tackle no matter where the contact point was. It's the same result but got there in a different way.

You will never eliminate high tackles. It is absolutely impossible in a game like rugby. You can largely eliminate thuggery.

Basically I agree with the categories you have. Thuggery has no place in professional rugby and should have significant penalties. Mistakes that are dangerous are different in my opinion. Red cards should be for fighting, stamping, gouging, spear tackles, swinging arms, attacking defense less guys on the ground etc.

networkn

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#2600365 9-Nov-2020 10:37

Reckless tackles, especially when a player has a history of them, should be dealt with harshly. In my view, continued recklessness == Intent.

I agree there is no getting away from the occasional high tackle, in a full contact sport, with bodies moving as quickly as those are, with all the machinations of the movements, including unintended impact of the other players in a tackle, ruck, or maul..

Jas777

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#2600469 9-Nov-2020 13:39

Agree about the propping being light but that was always going to be the case with the way super rugby teams play now.

No one has mentioned it but the slowness of TJ pass was so evident. He gets away with it a bit at super level but at international level it is a liability. It hamstrings everyone down the line and it was one of the major reasons why the Crusaders could handle the Hurricanes in last few years.

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#2600480 9-Nov-2020 13:48

Jas777:

Agree about the propping being light but that was always going to be the case with the way super rugby teams play now.

No one has mentioned it but the slowness of TJ pass was so evident. He gets away with it a bit at super level but at international level it is a liability. It hamstrings everyone down the line and it was one of the major reasons why the Crusaders could handle the Hurricanes in last few years.

Yeah, though he didn't have a great game overall, but if your forwards aren't fronting, both your 9-10 and entire backline are going to be suffering. His pass accuracy is pretty average as well. I often lament here that the speed of the pass is less of a problem than where the pass ends up. We have a habit of passing too high which slows the momentum of the entire backline movement.

Brad Weber has a faster pass, but it's not like things got better with him on the park. His pass seems to have some of it's crispness in the last couple of years, but he has added some TJP type qualities to his play.

Apparently, there is a guy called Xavier Roe playing for Waikato who may be the next big thing, though personally, I see some potential in Enari, who's pass is equisitie but probably has some other areas he needs to resolve. He can be quite excitable and loses his accuracy as well.

Jas777

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#2600485 9-Nov-2020 13:58

Enari isn't All Black material. He is behind Drummond and he isn't All Black material either. Enari hasn't been the same since he broke his leg twice.

The Highlanders forwards are either parity or behind the opposition and Smith stands out so the forwards can't be used as all the excuse. I just think TJ is a ok All Black but not a world-class one and needs other areas to dominate.

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#2600743 9-Nov-2020 22:58

This is worth reading on the high tackle topic. I don't agree with some of it but it does raise some good points.

http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/11/08/world-rugby-high-tackle-framework-update-2020/

GV27

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#2600866 10-Nov-2020 10:21

Handle9:

This is worth reading on the high tackle topic. I don't agree with some of it but it does raise some good points.

http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/11/08/world-rugby-high-tackle-framework-update-2020/

I really struggle with this. This comments about Tualangi's citing suggests the Swindon incident was less aggravating than the Tu’ungafasi card because Whitelock was bent over; Swindon made no effort to use his arms at all and made contact with the head in a full shoulder charge. while Tu’ungafasi fully wrapped the player he'd made contact with.

It would be massively wrong for them receive the same sanction from the citing body.

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#2600876 10-Nov-2020 10:30

GV27:

Handle9:

This is worth reading on the high tackle topic. I don't agree with some of it but it does raise some good points.

http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/11/08/world-rugby-high-tackle-framework-update-2020/

I really struggle with this. This comments about Tualangi's citing suggests the Swindon incident was less aggravating than the Tu’ungafasi card because Whitelock was bent over; Swindon made no effort to use his arms at all and made contact with the head in a full shoulder charge. while Tu’ungafasi fully wrapped the player he'd made contact with.

It would be massively wrong for them receive the same sanction from the citing body.

Agreed. The way the citing commission works means he could end up as bad or worse off, especially as he was warned previously for his tackle technique after he was involved in a 2 man tackle that fractured a French players face in 2 places in 2018.

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